I Went to the Dyno - ZFG 93 & E50

[ZFGracing]

certainly not logarithmic but its also not a fixed value (i.e., 68hp) either. its more a baseline fixed value plus a percentage for additional hp added. the way to think of it is that friction isn't the only variable here. Rotational and fixed masses play a part as well. To spin a 50lb. drum to 400rpm in 1 minute takes a lot less energy than to spin the same drum to 400rpm in 30 seconds. In other words to get all rotational masses in the driveline (gears, shafts, wheels, brake rotors, etc.) up to speed takes energy, and it takes MORE energy to get them to speed more quickly. The resistance goes up simply because the gears are spinning with greater pressure (normal force), so there is more friction per unit time, which means more work must be done to overcome it. Now, there is no way that there would be over 200hp worth of of frictional losses just like TMac points out in the above post but there WILL be more than the 68hp loss at stock power levels.

There's a lot more factors here than you would think one thing that could cause drivetrain loss to climb could be something like an open style torque converter. Which as you throw more and more horsepower at it becomes less and less efficient, that can drive your losses up significantly as you add more power.

That's really not the case with 10r80 because it is a lock up style torque converter and a relatively efficient transmission in fact if we were dynoing only through the rear wheels I would expect to see stock numbers around 360.

In this case you're probably on the right track saying that if the drivetrain loss is 68 horsepower it's probably going to stay relatively the same. But I don't think through any of this anybody was saying anything about crank horsepower numbers because in my opinion nobody really gives crap about crank horsepower numbers.

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[TMac]

certainly not logarithmic but its also not a fixed value (i.e., 68hp) either. its more a baseline fixed value plus a percentage for additional hp added. the way to think of it is that friction isn't the only variable here. Rotational and fixed masses play a part as well. To spin a 50lb. drum to 400rpm in 1 minute takes a lot less energy than to spin the same drum to 400rpm in 30 seconds. In other words to get all rotational masses in the driveline (gears, shafts, wheels, brake rotors, etc.) up to speed takes energy, and it takes MORE energy to get them to speed more quickly. The resistance goes up simply because the gears are spinning with greater pressure (normal force), so there is more friction per unit time, which means more work must be done to overcome it. Now, there is no way that there would be over 200hp worth of of frictional losses just like TMac points out in the above post but there WILL be more than the 68hp loss at stock power levels.

Thanks so much for the input, and clearly you're right- force (hp) is being measured by mass and time. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, on a chassis dyno, the hp is being measured by whatever means that particular dyno is using (weighted rollers, water pumps, magnetic, etc). So the hp is a function of calculations which do not include the mass of the drive train of the vehicle. So when people calculate drive train loss, they're simply taking advertised crank hp and subtracting dyno hp.
Since both advertised crank hp is varying (and perhaps under or overinflated), the drive train loss is who knows?

In any case, if you get a 100 hp gain over stock on the same dyno, you got 100hp extra. Using percentages only ends up inflating crank hp figures.

T

 

[ZFGracing]

Thanks so much for the input, and clearly you're right- force (hp) is being measured by mass and time. However, and correct me if I'm wrong, on a chassis dyno, the hp is being measured by whatever means that particular dyno is using (weighted rollers, water pumps, magnetic, etc). So the hp is a function of calculations which do not include the mass of the drive train of the vehicle. So when people calculate drive train loss, they're simply taking advertised crank hp and subtracting dyno hp.
Since both advertised crank hp is varying (and perhaps under or overinflated), the drive train loss is who knows?

In any case, if you get a 100 hp gain over stock on the same dyno, you got 100hp extra. Using percentages only ends up inflating crank hp figures.

T

Again I'm not sure I see your point a hundred horsepower is a hundred horsepower it's made 100 more horsepower then it did before at wheels. Nobody really cares what it makes up the crank remember that Dyno is just a tool.

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[zdubyadubya]

Everyone here is pretty much correct and speaking the same language--I admit that my analogy was overly simplified. Like everyone is saying; a 100hp dyno increase is a 100hp dyno increase. I think the point TMac was making is that the % increase claims or crank hp claims made by tuners (not you ZFG) are dumb because they are inaccurate. Which everyone agrees with. Personally I even stretch that futher--I dislike dynos for the same reason. 0-60 and 60-120 are the two measurements I care about the most because those tell me how the "butt dyno" is gonna feel. ;-)

 

[TMac]

Not to belabor the point but...assume you take your stock st to the AWD dyno. 332hp,right. Now let's bolt on the smallest, lightest wheels that will fit over the brakes (SSRs, Volks...) add in the lowest profile baloney skins you can fit and put it back on the dyno. What happens? Note, we didn't alter the engine hp at all. Guess what, more hp, and less drive train loss.

But I sure hope all of you who are modifying will continue to post dynos that show us stock vs modified! I'm really looking forward to that first individual (Unbroken?) to put a couple Garrett G25 550s, or a single GTX 4294rs on one of these.

 

[edeyoung2]

Here is the High Res file...

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Question about your zfg 93 octane tune. I have the same tune and under wot acceleration when shifting into 2 I get a audible jolt sound from the dash. Do you get the same thing? I imagine it's from the front tires biting. Just curious

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[LokiWolf]

Question about your zfg 93 octane tune. I have the same tune and under wot acceleration when shifting into 2 I get a audible jolt sound from the dash. Do you get the same thing? I imagine it's from the front tires biting. Just curious

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Are you talking in Sport? Normal? All the time? Launching hard? Need more info.


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[edeyoung2]

Are you talking in Sport? Normal? All the time? Launching hard? Need more info.


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It did it the other day in normal mode. It will always does it in sport under a full throttle launch

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[LokiWolf]

It did it the other day in normal mode. It will always does it in sport under a full throttle launch

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Shifting in Sport under WOT should be quick and solid. If you are getting hard shifts in Normal 1-2, talk to Adam @ZFG. He should be able to adjust.


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[edeyoung2]

Shifting in Sport under WOT should be quick and solid. If you are getting hard shifts in Normal 1-2, talk to Adam @ZFG. He should be able to adjust.


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Thanks. I did just email him. The shifts are very quick I just wanted to know if anyone else heard this noise.

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[Fuzzytip1]

so its been a year, im assuming no issues at all on your tune? Everything running great? I just ordered Thermal exhaust , Springs and the whipple cooler. National Speed here in NC is doing the install......will be getting a zfg tune after I get it back.

 

[LokiWolf]

so its been a year, im assuming no issues at all on your tune? Everything running great? I just ordered Thermal exhaust , Springs and the whipple cooler. National Speed here in NC is doing the install......will be getting a zfg tune after I get it back.

Yep! Still going strong. Was on the E50 tune recently for a few weeks. Had some rewards I needed to burn at a different brand station so flipped back to 93. 93 is strong, but that E50 tune is AMAZING!


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[Ramairgt1]

We have the same last name, doubt we are related though

 

[edeyoung2]

I did a kam reset and a transmission adaptive value reset with the sct tuner I have from a previous tune. It fixed the hard shift from 1st to 2nd but the shift from 2nd to 3rd is still hard above 5k rpm. Adam at zfg told me to drive it for a week or so to let it learn. I must say that after the kam reset this thing launched harder than I've ever felt. This damn thing moves. Hopefully this thing will learn properly. Any advice on driving while learning? Should I drive normal without any launches for a while?

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[LokiWolf]

I did a kam reset and a transmission adaptive value reset with the sct tuner I have from a previous tune. It fixed the hard shift from 1st to 2nd but the shift from 2nd to 3rd is still hard above 5k rpm. Adam at zfg told me to drive it for a week or so to let it learn. I must say that after the kam reset this thing launched harder than I've ever felt. This damn thing moves. Hopefully this thing will learn properly. Any advice on driving while learning? Should I drive normal without any launches for a while?

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Do a little bit of everything! Hard, easy, slow speed, hard decel. Basically drive it normal. Not too much of any one thing.

Excellent troubleshooting. HPTuners can do a KAM reset/relearn in the newest version of Scanner.


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[edeyoung2]

Do a little bit of everything! Hard, easy, slow speed, hard decel. Basically drive it normal. Not too much of any one thing.

Excellent troubleshooting. HPTuners can do a KAM reset/relearn in the newest version of Scanner.


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In your opinion does any of this seem like a transmission problem or just in the learning process? I can't remember it doing this in stock form. Is this something Adam can fix if the learning doesn't cure it? Thanks for the help.

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[LokiWolf]

In your opinion does any of this seem like a transmission problem or just in the learning process? I can't remember it doing this in stock form. Is this something Adam can fix if the learning doesn't cure it? Thanks for the help.

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Actually can be both.

These trans are weak point. Completely stock they can have issues. Mine was better on Adam’s tunes than stock, but eventually had issues even tuned. Had solenoid and a clutch pack replaced at like 5K, no issues since, and I am at 15K now. Mine was a 7-6 downshift, that was HARSH!

Yes, he can tweak it if still an issue.


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[edeyoung2]

Actually can be both.

These trans are weak point. Completely stock they can have issues. Mine was better on Adam’s tunes than stock, but eventually had issues even tuned. Had solenoid and a clutch pack replaced at like 5K, no issues since, and I am at 15K now. Mine was a 7-6 downshift, that was HARSH!

Yes, he can tweak it if still an issue.


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Did the dealer find your tune or did they not care?

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[LokiWolf]

Did the dealer find your tune or did they not care?

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Returned to stock for a bit more than a week. They do know I am tuned, but generally don’t give me a hard time if I return to stock and don’t make it obvious. I treat my vehicles well, and do most of my maintenance at the dealership. The relationship is what matters.


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[UNBROKEN]

I did a kam reset and a transmission adaptive value reset with the sct tuner I have from a previous tune. It fixed the hard shift from 1st to 2nd but the shift from 2nd to 3rd is still hard above 5k rpm. Adam at zfg told me to drive it for a week or so to let it learn. I must say that after the kam reset this thing launched harder than I've ever felt. This damn thing moves. Hopefully this thing will learn properly. Any advice on driving while learning? Should I drive normal without any launches for a while?

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I use my old X4 regularly to do a KAM reset.