Loaded my 5* 93 tune today. Dragy times

[ZFGracing]

Think about an 87 vs 93 tune. At WOT, both are using approx the same amount of injector, but the timing and boost amounts would be different. So, if you have an 87 tune (for example), the 93 wouldn't add anything, but if you're running a 93 tune and use 87, then hopefully the knock sensors will save you by retarding timing and boost. The ECU has both short and long term correction strategies to help with these things.

As far as a mix of ethanol it's more complicated, since besides timing and boost, the injector pulse width is also affected. So, if you're using say straight gasoline in an e50 tune, we can definitely assume you're going to be running lean. In this case, the o2 sensor is used as a correction strategy, as well as the knock sensors.

The actual answer is you have some leeway if you're just running down the highway in closed loop mode, but if you fill up a cold car with the wrong stuff and then go full WOT, it might not compensate in time.

I remember a post ZFG made on this very subject a while back, try searching his posts to find it- as I remember he said there was some leeway, but I don't remember any specifics.

These are closed loop all the time including power enrich. They are also direct injection not port injection so its more complicated.

But the issue is also a lot more complex than you are giving it credit. For example on a 93 tune you can mix in up to 30% ethanol and be completely fine the truck can adapt fuel wise and it can also add timing. What you have to remember is these are not running ancient ecu's they have adaptive close the loop spark as well. On a 93 tune your typically going to see five to six degrees of timing, spike it with e30 and the truck is going to add timing on its own and with the freedom that it has in the 93 to and it's going to end up in the 10 to 11 degree range keep in mind it knows where and MBT timing is and can't go past it.

Even if you screwed up I put way too much ethanol in it it has a couple of safeties. If it hits 100% duty cycle with it will pull power rather than go lean. It's actually virtually impossible to make it go lean(with my tune) some tuners disable stuff they shouldn't. Today I actually had a customer that was intending on spiking their 93 tune and filled up 100% of e85. Tune did exactly as it should and pulled the power and let him actually drive it, he's burning the tank out to get back down to e30.



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[ZFGracing]

Since we are talking about this:

What leeway, if any, is built into a typical ZFG E50 tune to allow us to run higher or lower E values (without retuning) depending on variations in the fuel quality at any given time?

Right 40-60%

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[LokiWolf]

Think about an 87 vs 93 tune. At WOT, both are using approx the same amount of injector, but the timing and boost amounts would be different. So, if you have an 87 tune (for example), the 93 wouldn't add anything, but if you're running a 93 tune and use 87, then hopefully the knock sensors will save you by retarding timing and boost. The ECU has both short and long term correction strategies to help with these things.

As far as a mix of ethanol it's more complicated, since besides timing and boost, the injector pulse width is also affected. So, if you're using say straight gasoline in an e50 tune, we can definitely assume you're going to be running lean. In this case, the o2 sensor is used as a correction strategy, as well as the knock sensors.

The actual answer is you have some leeway if you're just running down the highway in closed loop mode, but if you fill up a cold car with the wrong stuff and then go full WOT, it might not compensate in time.

I remember a post ZFG made on this very subject a while back, try searching his posts to find it- as I remember he said there was some leeway, but I don't remember any specifics.

Yet again, A LOT of babble with ZERO real info on the actual question asked. If you don’t know the actual answer don’t answer…pretty simple.

ZFG already answered, and there are others that can too with the simple answer of 40-60. But even if you get out of that the safeguards he leaves in place will not trash your car, or leave you stranded.


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[TMac]

These are closed loop all the time including power enrich. They are also direct injection not port injection so its more complicated.

But the issue is also a lot more complex than you are giving it credit. For example on a 93 tune you can mix in up to 30% ethanol and be completely fine the truck can adapt fuel wise and it can also add timing. What you have to remember is these are not running ancient ecu's they have adaptive close the loop spark as well. On a 93 tune your typically going to see five to six degrees of timing, spike it with e30 and the truck is going to add timing on its own and with the freedom that it has in the 93 to and it's going to end up in the 10 to 11 degree range keep in mind it knows where and MBT timing is and can't go past it.

Even if you screwed up I put way too much ethanol in it it has a couple of safeties. If it hits 100% duty cycle with it will pull power rather than go lean. It's actually virtually impossible to make it go lean(with my tune) some tuners disable stuff they shouldn't. Today I actually had a customer that was intending on spiking their 93 tune and filled up 100% of e85. Tune did exactly as it should and pulled the power and let him actually drive it, he's burning the tank out to get back down to e30.



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I do not have experience with the ECU on this model, so you're right, I'm probably out of date! So, just for grins, I could actually run say an e30 tune with no tuning on the factory ECU and see performance improvements? It would actually add boost and timing and enrichment? Seems to be what you're saying.

 

[TMac]

Yet again, A LOT of babble with ZERO real info on the actual question asked. If you don’t know the actual answer don’t answer…pretty simple.

ZFG already answered, and there are others that can too with the simple answer of 40-60. But even if you get out of that the safeguards he leaves in place will not trash your car, or leave you stranded.

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I posted some information which may not have reflected the actual strategy of the ecu, but it certainly wasn't information that was patently wrong. I even posted the disclaimer:

I remember a post ZFG made on this very subject a while back, try searching his posts to find it- as I remember he said there was some leeway, but I don't remember any specifics.

I try very hard to post good information on this site based on my past experience, and like everyone can sometimes be mistaken, but it seems rather extreme to post that "Yet again a LOT of babble with ZERO real info".

 

[LokiWolf]

I posted some information which may not have reflected the actual strategy of the ecu, but it certainly wasn't information that was patently wrong. I even posted the disclaimer:

I remember a post ZFG made on this very subject a while back, try searching his posts to find it- as I remember he said there was some leeway, but I don't remember any specifics.

I try very hard to post good information on this site based on my past experience, and like everyone can sometimes be mistaken, but it seems rather extreme to post that "Yet again a LOT of babble with ZERO real info".

Sorry, your posts are generally long winded, and provide “info” that in most cases does not apply to the platform. I am not on here as often as I used to be, but that is my take.


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[TMac]

Fair enough.

 

[CH46E]

Not even remotely close to right. You need to use a blending app to calculate the percentage. E85 Mix is the best one I’ve tried. You also need an E85 test kit to know what you’re getting. I test my local station every 2 weeks…it’s consistently 85+. I fill up there 2-3 times a week so I always know what I’m getting.

Thanks man. I got that app. Great app BTW. So I was off a good little bit. I was probably around e35 or so. I added 5 more gallons I had in a gas can of e85 and put 1.5 more Gallons of 93 to it. With what was in the tank I should be pretty close. Had to run a few errands while that fuel mixed and ran through it. On my way home tonight i did 2 more pulls. 4.1x and 4.25 iirc. I'll put up the pics in the next message. I still have to crop them.

 

[CH46E]

Both these were in Normal Mode. TC off. 33 psi in the tires.

 

[CH46E]

Once my IC and other goodies are installed I'll be going to Orlando Speed World 1/4 mile track for some real times.

Adam is it? ZFG? I got your email reply. I'll try to send my stock file tonight.

If I don't have any e85 near by..... but I have access to VP Race Fuels, I think 110 and 116 octane.... and I want to have a great night at the track (fuel cost no concern) what would you recommend I do as far as a tune from you and fuel or fuel mixture.

I will have cooler plugs, the Whipple IC and turbosmart bov.

 

[CH46E]

What RPM are you guys launching at?

 

[LokiWolf]

What RPM are you guys launching at?

2900 was what I launched at. Stock 21’s. Best luck with wheel spin was around 31 PSI cold.

Best E50 0-60, everything stock except Tune was 3.72 0-60. That was a cool night, on a dry flat road.

Use Sport. Shifts should be quicker, and you will gain a 10th.


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[CH46E]

2900 was what I launched at. Stock 21’s. Best luck with wheel spin was around 31 PSI cold.

Best E50 0-60, everything stock except Tune was 3.72 0-60. That was a cool night, on a dry flat road.

Use Sport. Shifts should be quicker, and you will gain a 10th.


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Thanks for the tips. But in sport made its violent on the 1- 2 up shift. Maybe after the ZFG tune it will be better.

 

[LokiWolf]

Thanks for the tips. But in sport made its violent on the 1- 2 up shift. Maybe after the ZFG tune it will be better.

It should be quick and hard. I wouldn’t describe ZFG’s Sport WOT 1-2 shift as violent, but it is definitely solid!


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[CH46E]

It should be quick and hard. I wouldn’t describe ZFG’s Sport WOT 1-2 shift as violent, but it is definitely solid!


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I get a bad shutter.

 

[LokiWolf]

I get a bad shutter.

Yeah, Sounds like typical 5*, based on what I have seen and heard.


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[twin001]

Adam said the e50 tune is good for e40 to e60 blends.

 

[ZFGracing]

Once my IC and other goodies are installed I'll be going to Orlando Speed World 1/4 mile track for some real times.

Adam is it? ZFG? I got your email reply. I'll try to send my stock file tonight.

If I don't have any e85 near by..... but I have access to VP Race Fuels, I think 110 and 116 octane.... and I want to have a great night at the track (fuel cost no concern) what would you recommend I do as far as a tune from you and fuel or fuel mixture.

I will have cooler plugs, the Whipple IC and turbosmart bov.

Ethanol is king in these. In your situation I would get a 93 tune and daily that. Then for the track I would order ignite e90 and mix yourself up to e50 and get an e50 tune. Race gas doesn't do well in these especially 1/4 mile wise.

You can always mix in 20-30% ethanol on the 93 tune as well to pep up the daily tune.

Transmission wise I'll work with you to get it right. It's a balancing act. The shift needs to be quick and firm to keep the clutches happy. But not so hard it's uncomfortable.

Thanks!

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[CH46E]

Ethanol is king in these. In your situation I would get a 93 tune and daily that. Then for the track I would order ignite e90 and mix yourself up to e50 and get an e50 tune. Race gas doesn't do well in these especially 1/4 mile wise.

You can always mix in 20-30% ethanol on the 93 tune as well to pep up the daily tune.

Transmission wise I'll work with you to get it right. It's a balancing act. The shift needs to be quick and firm to keep the clutches happy. But not so hard it's uncomfortable.

Thanks!

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Thanks Adam. I just placed the order online. Working on getting the stock tune sent to you.

 

[BigRichard]

I do not have experience with the ECU on this model, so you're right, I'm probably out of date! So, just for grins, I could actually run say an e30 tune with no tuning on the factory ECU and see performance improvements? It would actually add boost and timing and enrichment? Seems to be what you're saying.

@ZFGracing, or anyone else with actual experience, what are your thoughts on running E30 on the stock tune as TMac asked above?