Datalogs

[Jonx96]

The tuner you were arguing with holds every possible record with the ST. If he gave you any advice I’d listen to it.

Wow aren’t you a peach. You I don’t think I care to get along with.

 

[UNBROKEN]

Wow aren’t you a peach. You I don’t think I care to get along with.

That’s your choice. You may not like my delivery but you’ll find I don’t sugarcoat shit and tell it like it is. I’m not concerned with peoples feelings.

 

[Jonx96]

That’s your choice. You may not like my delivery but you’ll find I don’t sugarcoat shit and tell it like it is. I’m not concerned with peoples feelings.

Besides the fact at this point I felt I had no issues with anyone and here you come being a keyboard warrior. Everyone else is being civil right now.
heck ya I have more to learn. Guess what. I’m excited to learn.

 

[UNBROKEN]

I haven’t been uncivil at all, I said I don’t find you qualified to give anyone advice on this platform. And I don’t. Maybe one day I will but today isn’t that day. And again, if Adam gave you any advice I’d surely listen to him. You won’t find anyone that knows this platform better.

 

[Jonx96]

I haven’t been uncivil at all, I said I don’t find you qualified to give anyone advice on this platform. And I don’t. Maybe one day I will but today isn’t that day. And again, if Adam gave you any advice I’d surely listen to him. You won’t find anyone that knows this platform better.

I was referring to the pound sand comment and I should listen to any advise he gives. If that’s not how you meant it. Then I apologize.

 

[LokiWolf]

What is the stock boost level (psig)? I would think this would be common knowledge.
Is that boost level fixed, or do the maps allow for adjustment via rpm or gear or both?

You have been given these answers, but you chose not to listen or did not understand(don’t mean that as a put down).

No modern EcoBoost uses a boost strategy. They use Torque management based tuning. Comparing boost across them is pointless, because so many things like temp, altitude, and fuel affect what PSI is requested. Watching it as a factor of monitoring and logging is fine, but using it as a gauge for performance is not really a thing on this platform.


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[Jonx96]

I haven’t been uncivil at all, I said I don’t find you qualified to give anyone advice on this platform. And I don’t. Maybe one day I will but today isn’t that day. And again, if Adam gave you any advice I’d surely listen to him. You won’t find anyone that knows this platform better.

Also. To anyone reading this I am not saying he isn’t the best. I have no dealings with him.

 

[TMac]

You have been given these answers, but you chose not to listen or did not understand(don’t mean that as a put down).

No modern EcoBoost uses a boost strategy. They use Torque management based tuning. Comparing boost across them is pointless, because so many things like temp, altitude, and fuel affect what PSI is requested. Watching it as a factor of monitoring and logging is fine, but using it as a gauge for performance is not really a thing on this platform.


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Whatever you want to call it, the fact is that all tuning is torque based tuning. In an ICE "torque" is a static measurement of cylinder pressure. In turn, cylinder pressure is a function of V/E and the density of the intake charge. Regardless of the ecu, given the same mechanical considerations we can change V/E at various RPMs via cam phasing, or effect charge density via boost through wastegate control. (Notice I'm leaving the particulars of the ECU out of this discussion!) So when you use the term "torque based", it/s confusing, since I know that to affect torque, and therefore horsepower, those two variables have to be tweaked along with appropriate timing. Not that matters, but my guess is that 400hp at 5500 "should" be about 1.8 bar.

Maybe it's not me who doesn't understand.

 

[TMac]

Now, I only have a few data points- the original Ford torque/hp figures and a handful of dyno charts from zfg, livernois, and 5 star. Based on those, you can see some pretty signficant differences in the torque and in all of these, zfg was most impressive. He has to be doing quite a bit of work to tweak those variables at the rate the stock turbos spool up to keep such a flat torque curve for so long into the rpm band. The other data point is as you remember Forzda who couldn't deal with the PID algorithm parameters for the closed loop wastegate control. Another difficult thing to get right. If it were as simple as just inputting a "required torque" number into a map, then all of those dynos would look the same.

 

[ZFGracing]

Now, I only have a few data points- the original Ford torque/hp figures and a handful of dyno charts from zfg, livernois, and 5 star. Based on those, you can see some pretty signficant differences in the torque and in all of these, zfg was most impressive. He has to be doing quite a bit of work to tweak those variables at the rate the stock turbos spool up to keep such a flat torque curve for so long into the rpm band. The other data point is as you remember Forzda who couldn't deal with the PID for the closed loop wastegate control. Another difficult thing to get right. If it were as simple as just inputting a "required torque" number into a map, then all of those dynos would look the same.

Right it's not that simple and your right, You have to remember this is a very young mostly stock market. Competitive edges are razor thin. Little things matter when your splitting hairs on a bunch of cars that are all the same. I also have a lot of money invested in emmisons testing and r&d on this platform, so "secrets" are closely guarded. Something like a hellcat platform where people are deep into moding and going fast is a little different because it's a little more than just a few "secrets" in the tune making those things fast.

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[TMac]

Right it's not that simple and your right, You have to remember this is a very young mostly stock market. Competitive edges are razor thin. Little things matter when your splitting hairs on a bunch of cars that are all the same. I also have a lot of money invested in emmisons testing and r&d on this platform, so "secrets" are closely guarded. Something like a hellcat platform where people are deep into moding and going fast is a little different because it's a little more than just a few "secrets" in the tune making those things fast.

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That sir, is an honest answer! So how close am I about 1.8 bar at 5500 stock? (We'll assume near sea level and 77 degrees)

 

[ZFGracing]

That sir, is an honest answer! So how close am I about 1.8 bar at 5500 stock? (We'll assume near sea level and 77 degrees)

Boost is completely irrelevant this is a torque based strategy, it will make whatever boost it takes meet at work request while staying within the limits set in tune. The torque request generates the air load request, they are load request then sets the boost but that is all based on the ambient air conditions. Stock boost can be anywhere between 15 and 20 psi depending on the exterior conditions and a whole host of other factors. On a nice cold morning it only takes 15 psi to make the the 400 ft-lbs request but on a hot summer day with crazy manifold charge temps it might take 20 psi. Even in your example of sea level 77 degrees there is no definite answer, you could make a quarter mile pull and have it start at 15 psi and have hot mcts mid pull and peak out at 20 psi before the computer starts to limit power do to temperatures.

ECU makes that calculation in real time. There is also no base wastegate pressure. These have vacuum actuated wastegates with no reference to any boost, the truck can literally run 0 psi at wot if that's what is being called for torque wise.

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[LokiWolf]

(Notice I'm leaving the particulars of the ECU out of this discussion!)
Maybe it's not me who doesn't understand.

Yep, I have No clue…

The ECU particulars are what matters…


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[LokiWolf]

Boost is completely irrelevant this is a torque based strategy, it will make whatever boost it takes meet at work request while staying within the limits set in tune. The torque request generates the air load request, they are load request then sets the boost but that is all based on the ambient air conditions. Stock boost can be anywhere between 15 and 20 psi depending on the exterior conditions and a whole host of other factors. On a nice cold morning it only takes 15 psi to make the the 400 ft-lbs request but on a hot summer day with crazy manifold charge temps it might take 20 psi. Even in your example of sea level 77 degrees there is no definite answer, you could make a quarter mile pull and have it start at 15 psi and have hot mcts mid pull and peak out at 20 psi before the computer starts to limit power do to temperatures.

ECU makes that calculation in real time. There is also no base wastegate pressure. These have vacuum actuated wastegates with no reference to any boost, the truck can literally run 0 psi at wot if that's what is being called for torque wise.

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And this why you are the pro and I will always be one of your customers! Thanks for putting it in words I could never do!


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[TMac]

Yep, No clue…

The ECU particulars are what matters…


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You only quoted part of my post. If there's anything in the bulk of my post that is wrong, you're welcome to let me know. Unless you just want to emoji me to death!

But class, what have we learned interesting today? Our ST uses vacuum referenced wastegates. Which means they can be open regardless of boost pressure. This means they can be open when tooling down the road or at idle, etc resulting in better fuel efficiency as you don't have to put extra power into driving the turbines when not under load. It also means there's a vacuum pump of some type hiding under the hood. I've heard of this on diesels with VNT, but didn't know it was on the ST.

We also learned that the Ford ecu is calibrated to use a torque demand strategy (don't know if this is measured in lb/ft, newton/meters, lbs/min of airflow, or furlongs/fortnight) which allows it to adjust boost (and possibly cam timing?) based on that demand.

I also learned that the stock boost is between 15 and 20 psi which seems suprisingly high to me. I had only asked out of curiosity.

 

[zdubyadubya]

(don't know if this is measured in lb/ft, newton/meters, lbs/min of airflow, or furlongs/fortnight)

I'm fairly confident its that last one.

 

[LokiWolf]

You only quoted part of my post. If there's anything in the bulk of my post that is wrong, you're welcome to let me know. Unless you just want to emoji me to death!

But class, what have we learned interesting today? Our ST uses vacuum referenced wastegates. Which means they can be open regardless of boost pressure. This means they can be open when tooling down the road or at idle, etc resulting in better fuel efficiency as you don't have to put extra power into driving the turbines when not under load. It also means there's a vacuum pump of some type hiding under the hood. I've heard of this on diesels with VNT, but didn't know it was on the ST.

We also learned that the Ford ecu is calibrated to use a torque demand strategy (don't know if this is measured in lb/ft, newton/meters, lbs/min of airflow, or furlongs/fortnight) which allows it to adjust boost (and possibly cam timing?) based on that demand.

I also learned that the stock boost is between 15 and 20 psi which seems suprisingly high to me. I had only asked out of curiosity. I also learned that I need to be more careful when typing since I posted 1.8 bar- about 26.5psi when I meant 0.8 bar which is about 12 psi!

Is this better, I quoted the whole thing? I also corrected my post above…”Yep, I have no clue…”. Just in case it doesn’t come through in the typed word…that was sarcasm.

All of the above is diarrhea of the keyboard.

Let’s summarize for the class…

Boost on a EcoBoost means ZERO in the logic and is a means to an end. Torque demanded is King. There is a lot more that happens between.

I have tuned diesels…it was 15+ years ago. I started looking at my first EcoBoost 7 years ago, and realized I was out of my league, then I saw the tables for a 10Speed, like the 10R60 and knew yep, I’ll leave it to the pros.

Went through a few tuners with my Edge Sport before I stumbled across this Adam guy who wanted to get somebody with a Edge to try higher than E30, and I said what the hell. Been using him ever since. I do Tech for a living and have a BS in Chemistry. I have driven some serious Race Cars(that go both left and right, not just straight) in my 30 years of driving. Don’t know it all, not even close. But nothing I have typed in this thread is incorrect. Might not use the terms you want, but not incorrect.

No more from me in this discussion cause well…pointless. And just because you seem to like them…here is more emojis…


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[TMac]

I'm fairly confident its that last one.

At least you read the post! Good catch!

 

[ZFGracing]

You only quoted part of my post. If there's anything in the bulk of my post that is wrong, you're welcome to let me know. Unless you just want to emoji me to death!

But class, what have we learned interesting today? Our ST uses vacuum referenced wastegates. Which means they can be open regardless of boost pressure. This means they can be open when tooling down the road or at idle, etc resulting in better fuel efficiency as you don't have to put extra power into driving the turbines when not under load. It also means there's a vacuum pump of some type hiding under the hood. I've heard of this on diesels with VNT, but didn't know it was on the ST.

We also learned that the Ford ecu is calibrated to use a torque demand strategy (don't know if this is measured in lb/ft, newton/meters, lbs/min of airflow, or furlongs/fortnight) which allows it to adjust boost (and possibly cam timing?) based on that demand.

I also learned that the stock boost is between 15 and 20 psi which seems suprisingly high to me. I had only asked out of curiosity. I also learned that I need to be more careful when typing since I posted 1.8 bar- about 26.5psi when I meant 0.8 bar which is about 12 psi!

Pretty much all ecoboosts have vacuum pumps. In this case the Nano uses a cam driven vacuum pump.

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