Goodbye SS, Hello ST!

[Bwinter714]

Hi all!

My name is Brian. I'm (one of) your newest members, I normally do a ton of methodical research before I purchase a vehicle but not this time. My previous car, my baby, my Chevy SS (that's the whole model, just SS. It's a rebadged Holden Commodore from AUS) was taken in a freak rain storm. I was driving on the highway in the Berkshires (Massachusetts) going up a gentle sweeping right curve when I was suddenly in an instant torrential downpour. That happens infrequently here, but it happened when I was driving. Well, as soon as it hit, I took my foot off the gas to coast and slow down. Problem is, on I90 in that part of the state, it has issues with standing water. And I guess you can tell what happened next. My driver side wheels hit a standing pool of water, and because my wheel was slightly turned to follow the curve of the road immediately kicked my ass end out, across all 3 lanes and nose first into the guard rail, spun around hit the back end, and then ended up facing oncoming traffic in the middle of the road. I was totally uninjured, she was a very safe car and took care of me right up until her last cam rotation. To spare you the length, I was able to actually turn it over and smoke the rear tires to get her out of the middle lane before she finally died, basically pushing a destroyed front end on pure willpower of the venerable LS3 V8. I will surely miss her. I'm a car guy, I love everything about them, so yeah, I'm a little broken up about it. I would've bought it back wrecked and fixed it over the years, but Nationwide didn't give me that option.

Some wreckage porn if anyone is interested. First pic is about 2 minutes after it happened after I hopped the guard rail to keep myself safe, and the rain was already letting up. If only I had waited another 5 minutes at work!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/f8SPdMeXmk52cZir7

Anyway, now that that is over, I'm excited to be a part of the community! My Wife was subtly hinting that we needed a larger vehicle for family trips long before this, but she knew how much I loved the SS and the plan was to actually get her the bigger vehicle. I'm a torque junkie, so I was all about going electric. But since I'm the one that put miles on (about 25-35k a year), it wasn't feasible for me because I REFUSE to pay over sticker for anything, "Market Adjustment" my ass, f*** that noise. Anything worth buying had multiple thousand dollar ADM's. So, I just googled "Fastest SUV". Aaaaannnnd, I couldn't afford any of those. So I started accepting my fate, that my next car was going to be boring, docile. Maybe I would buy the big car, then when the time was right, give that to my Wife and I would buy something fun again. But then I found the ST trim of the Explorer, and after some quick research into market price, I was sold.

So I have a Titanium Green 2022 ST sitting at the dealer, while I'm working an entire country away on the West Coast. Paying exactly sticker, with $175 in dealer doc fees. I'll pick her up Monday, and while she isn't a row-your-own V8 sedan like the SS, I think she'll do just fine as a replacement. And bonus, my wife thinks I'm getting a boring old Explorer like her dad's lol!

I'm a modder (In fact, I have a BTR stage 2 cam for an LS3 that I was going to install over the winter if anyone is interested!), so from what I've gathered, this is what I'm planning on (this is my first turbo):

1. Wait 10,000 miles. I know that modding things voids warranties, so lets just ensure I don't have a lemon. That'll be 6 months at the most, and it'll give me time to research. I don't mind spending money, I do mind spending stupid money when there are lessons to be learned from others already.
2. Intercooler, thinking the Mishimoto
3. Monster tune, I like the stock mapping when driving casual. Don't forget, my Wife will want to take this thing around lol.
4. IDK? Sound maybe, I'll miss the sweet LS3 growl (so will my toddler, he asks nearly every day when my "Orange Car" is coming home no matter how many times I tell him that it's too broken) but I know I'll never get that again with the ecoboost. I'm open to suggestions!

I'm not looking to squeeze every ounce of torque of every HP out of her, I need her to be reliable and comfortable too. But I figure the above, that'll put 480?HP at the wheels, and that is more than fine to start. I figure if the Lincoln ecoboost can put down 490 at the crank, it should be reliable for 480 at the wheels.

Anyway, this is long enough, but I'm an electrical guy, I'm an enginerd and I work for myself. I saw another post about wanting the double-blink like the interceptors do, and I thought how easily that can be done. I'll reply to that post in a bit. But, I hope to learn a lot from you all, I and I'll do my best to contribute to this group!

Cheers,

-Brian

 

[STFan]

Welcome aboard

 

[2020FordRaptor]

Hi all!

My name is Brian. I'm (one of) your newest members, I normally do a ton of methodical research before I purchase a vehicle but not this time. My previous car, my baby, my Chevy SS (that's the whole model, just SS. It's a rebadged Holden Commodore from AUS) was taken in a freak rain storm. I was driving on the highway in the Berkshires (Massachusetts) going up a gentle sweeping right curve when I was suddenly in an instant torrential downpour. That happens infrequently here, but it happened when I was driving. Well, as soon as it hit, I took my foot off the gas to coast and slow down. Problem is, on I90 in that part of the state, it has issues with standing water. And I guess you can tell what happened next. My driver side wheels hit a standing pool of water, and because my wheel was slightly turned to follow the curve of the road immediately kicked my ass end out, across all 3 lanes and nose first into the guard rail, spun around hit the back end, and then ended up facing oncoming traffic in the middle of the road. I was totally uninjured, she was a very safe car and took care of me right up until her last cam rotation. To spare you the length, I was able to actually turn it over and smoke the rear tires to get her out of the middle lane before she finally died, basically pushing a destroyed front end on pure willpower of the venerable LS3 V8. I will surely miss her. I'm a car guy, I love everything about them, so yeah, I'm a little broken up about it. I would've bought it back wrecked and fixed it over the years, but Nationwide didn't give me that option.

Some wreckage porn if anyone is interested. First pic is about 2 minutes after it happened after I hopped the guard rail to keep myself safe, and the rain was already letting up. If only I had waited another 5 minutes at work!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/f8SPdMeXmk52cZir7

Anyway, now that that is over, I'm excited to be a part of the community! My Wife was subtly hinting that we needed a larger vehicle for family trips long before this, but she knew how much I loved the SS and the plan was to actually get her the bigger vehicle. I'm a torque junkie, so I was all about going electric. But since I'm the one that put miles on (about 25-35k a year), it wasn't feasible for me because I REFUSE to pay over sticker for anything, "Market Adjustment" my ass, f*** that noise. Anything worth buying had multiple thousand dollar ADM's. So, I just googled "Fastest SUV". Aaaaannnnd, I couldn't afford any of those. So I started accepting my fate, that my next car was going to be boring, docile. Maybe I would buy the big car, then when the time was right, give that to my Wife and I would buy something fun again. But then I found the ST trim of the Explorer, and after some quick research into market price, I was sold.

So I have a Titanium Green 2022 ST sitting at the dealer, while I'm working an entire country away on the West Coast. Paying exactly sticker, with $175 in dealer doc fees. I'll pick her up Monday, and while she isn't a row-your-own V8 sedan like the SS, I think she'll do just fine as a replacement. And bonus, my wife thinks I'm getting a boring old Explorer like her dad's lol!

I'm a modder (In fact, I have a BTR stage 2 cam for an LS3 that I was going to install over the winter if anyone is interested!), so from what I've gathered, this is what I'm planning on (this is my first turbo):

1. Wait 10,000 miles. I know that modding things voids warranties, so lets just ensure I don't have a lemon. That'll be 6 months at the most, and it'll give me time to research. I don't mind spending money, I do mind spending stupid money when there are lessons to be learned from others already.
2. Intercooler, thinking the Mishimoto
3. Monster tune, I like the stock mapping when driving casual. Don't forget, my Wife will want to take this thing around lol.
4. IDK? Sound maybe, I'll miss the sweet LS3 growl (so will my toddler, he asks nearly every day when my "Orange Car" is coming home no matter how many times I tell him that it's too broken) but I know I'll never get that again with the ecoboost. I'm open to suggestions!

I'm not looking to squeeze every ounce of torque of every HP out of her, I need her to be reliable and comfortable too. But I figure the above, that'll put 480?HP at the wheels, and that is more than fine to start. I figure if the Lincoln ecoboost can put down 490 at the crank, it should be reliable for 480 at the wheels.

Anyway, this is long enough, but I'm an electrical guy, I'm an enginerd and I work for myself. I saw another post about wanting the double-blink like the interceptors do, and I thought how easily that can be done. I'll reply to that post in a bit. But, I hope to learn a lot from you all, I and I'll do my best to contribute to this group!

Cheers,

-Brian

Gosh that made my heart mourn. Sorry about what happened. Well glad you came into the performance SUV segment (I consider the Lamborghini Urus a super-SUV and that my friend is the fastest SUV). If your looking for amazing sound, look up Thermal R&D 3" exhaust. Good gosh does it sound amazing. Good idea on waiting till warranty is done. If you absolutely can't wait, Ford Performance just came out with a tune and it gives you more power for the time being with factory warranty. Whiple intercooler, rear sway bar, Steeda or H&R lowering springs, front suspension strut brace, rear diff brace (a must), won't void warranty for what matters. Just my suggestion.

 

[dolsen]

First of all, I am sorry about what happened, I am a Ford guy through and through, BUT, I would gladly own and abuse a Chevy SS.

With that said, I forget the term, but that type of loss of traction is sort of common in circuit racing. I believe it has to do with the acceleration shifting the weight distribution to the rear, giving more traction to the tire, then when letting off of it, that weight distributes back towards the front of the car, creating less traction/weight on the rear tires. However, in the dry, it takes a much larger shift in the weight.

Certainly someone will correct any details I got wrong, which is always possible

I love my Explorer ST, and I think you will too.

 

[2020FordRaptor]

First of all, I am sorry about what happened, I am a Ford guy through and through, BUT, I would gladly own and abuse a Chevy SS.

With that said, I forget the term, but that type of loss of traction is sort of common in circuit racing. I believe it has to do with the acceleration shifting the weight distribution to the rear, giving more traction to the tire, then when letting off of it, that weight distributes back towards the front of the car, creating less traction/weight on the rear tires. However, in the dry, it takes a much larger shift in the weight.

Certainly someone will correct any details I got wrong, which is always possible

I love my Explorer ST, and I think you will too.

I was thinking he Hydroplaned.

 

[dolsen]

I was thinking he Hydroplaned.

possibly, but he said he let his foot off of the gas and the ass end kicked out. I doubt that only his rear end hydroplaned

 

[GearHead_1]

Yeah, probably not 480 at the crank with the mods listed. You may pick up 100 HP over factory at the crank with a good tune. You'll lose 15% - 18% of that putting it to the ground.

I believe the Lincoln numbers you are referring to have an electric motor helping out. At the end of the day, the numbers don't matter if it drives the way you want it to. If you're putting 30K miles on it yearly you don't want to be chasing every last pony.

 

[TMac]

Here's an actual dyno of a ZFG tuned vehicle (LokiWolf) completely stock other than the tune. This is a great comparison since it was done on the same dyno, on the same day with Stock tune, 93 tune, and E50 tune. These are all WHP numbers of course. Assuming stock was 400 crankshaft HP, you see a drivetrain loss of about 68 hp. With that in mind the 93 tune would equate to over 500 crankshaft HP. You cannot use a percentage to calculate drivetrain loss.

 

[GearHead_1]

It's true, with no other modifications, drive train loss is essentially a constant. That said, with the same after Tune, 68 crank to WHP loss, to achieve the desired 480WHP number the tune and the intercooler would need to add perhaps 140HP.

Given just the IC and the Tune (weighing heavily on the Tune), I don't see it happening. I'm not saying you can't crank the calibration of the Tune to achieve higher, but in order to support the desired numbers, I believe other goodies will be needed. Then add to the equation, a dependable, 30K/year, daily driver...

@TMac, I'd be interested in reading what type of HP at the crank, you see needed to net 480WHP on an ST.

 

[TMac]

It's true, with no other modifications, drive train loss is essentially a constant. That said, with the same after Tune, 68 crank to WHP loss, to achieve the desired 480WHP number the tune and the intercooler would need to add perhaps 140HP.

@TMac, I'd be interested in reading what type of HP at the crank, you see needed to net 480WHP on an ST.

We can see on the dyno above that it cost approximately 68 hp to convert between crank and whp. (400 crank - 332 whp = 68 at least on that dyno in whatever gear the pull was made). So, in this case (and remember every vehicle will be slightly different), we can add 68 hp to arrive at a crank hp level. So on 93 440 whp would be approx 508 crank. 486 whp on E50 would be 554.

For those who think that drivetrain loss equals a fixed percentage of crank hp, here's an analogy. Let's assume I pull out the ST engine and replace it with a 1200 crank hp supercharged Coyote engine. Since 68 hp is approximately 16% expressed as a percentage of the stock 400 crank hp, that would mean we could apply that to the 1200 chp engine. Does anyone seriously think that drivetrain losses will now amount to 192 HP (.16 * 1200)? And what force would suddenly cost us an additional 124 HP (192-68)? Perhaps we might introduce some additional friction via lubrication shear or thermal load due to same, but it certainly wouldn't amount to 124 extra HP.

 

[TMac]

In case anyone is still reading (lol), someone might also say, yes, but what about the F=MA? Since we're increasing the (A)cceleration of the components doesn't this affect the loss? Well, that's covered because (M)ass stayed the same, which means we increased the (F)orce. It has nothing to do with parasitic losses of gears, axles, pumps, etc associated with "drive train" losses.

But all of these HP comparisons are simply calculations of measured torque at a given load. So you have to compare apples to apples. A dyno chart (like I posted earlier) is great to measure the result, but it's not an absolute except for the dyno bench racing crowd. Look at it this way- if you gained 100hp, you gained 100hp!

 

[boiler662]

Sorry to hear about the OBM

There are a few of us that own both

 

[Blue Beast]

Hi all!

My name is Brian. I'm (one of) your newest members, I normally do a ton of methodical research before I purchase a vehicle but not this time. My previous car, my baby, my Chevy SS (that's the whole model, just SS. It's a rebadged Holden Commodore from AUS) was taken in a freak rain storm. I was driving on the highway in the Berkshires (Massachusetts) going up a gentle sweeping right curve when I was suddenly in an instant torrential downpour. That happens infrequently here, but it happened when I was driving. Well, as soon as it hit, I took my foot off the gas to coast and slow down. Problem is, on I90 in that part of the state, it has issues with standing water. And I guess you can tell what happened next. My driver side wheels hit a standing pool of water, and because my wheel was slightly turned to follow the curve of the road immediately kicked my ass end out, across all 3 lanes and nose first into the guard rail, spun around hit the back end, and then ended up facing oncoming traffic in the middle of the road. I was totally uninjured, she was a very safe car and took care of me right up until her last cam rotation. To spare you the length, I was able to actually turn it over and smoke the rear tires to get her out of the middle lane before she finally died, basically pushing a destroyed front end on pure willpower of the venerable LS3 V8. I will surely miss her. I'm a car guy, I love everything about them, so yeah, I'm a little broken up about it. I would've bought it back wrecked and fixed it over the years, but Nationwide didn't give me that option.

Some wreckage porn if anyone is interested. First pic is about 2 minutes after it happened after I hopped the guard rail to keep myself safe, and the rain was already letting up. If only I had waited another 5 minutes at work!
https://photos.app.goo.gl/f8SPdMeXmk52cZir7

Anyway, now that that is over, I'm excited to be a part of the community! My Wife was subtly hinting that we needed a larger vehicle for family trips long before this, but she knew how much I loved the SS and the plan was to actually get her the bigger vehicle. I'm a torque junkie, so I was all about going electric. But since I'm the one that put miles on (about 25-35k a year), it wasn't feasible for me because I REFUSE to pay over sticker for anything, "Market Adjustment" my ass, f*** that noise. Anything worth buying had multiple thousand dollar ADM's. So, I just googled "Fastest SUV". Aaaaannnnd, I couldn't afford any of those. So I started accepting my fate, that my next car was going to be boring, docile. Maybe I would buy the big car, then when the time was right, give that to my Wife and I would buy something fun again. But then I found the ST trim of the Explorer, and after some quick research into market price, I was sold.

So I have a Titanium Green 2022 ST sitting at the dealer, while I'm working an entire country away on the West Coast. Paying exactly sticker, with $175 in dealer doc fees. I'll pick her up Monday, and while she isn't a row-your-own V8 sedan like the SS, I think she'll do just fine as a replacement. And bonus, my wife thinks I'm getting a boring old Explorer like her dad's lol!

I'm a modder (In fact, I have a BTR stage 2 cam for an LS3 that I was going to install over the winter if anyone is interested!), so from what I've gathered, this is what I'm planning on (this is my first turbo):

1. Wait 10,000 miles. I know that modding things voids warranties, so lets just ensure I don't have a lemon. That'll be 6 months at the most, and it'll give me time to research. I don't mind spending money, I do mind spending stupid money when there are lessons to be learned from others already.
2. Intercooler, thinking the Mishimoto
3. Monster tune, I like the stock mapping when driving casual. Don't forget, my Wife will want to take this thing around lol.
4. IDK? Sound maybe, I'll miss the sweet LS3 growl (so will my toddler, he asks nearly every day when my "Orange Car" is coming home no matter how many times I tell him that it's too broken) but I know I'll never get that again with the ecoboost. I'm open to suggestions!

I'm not looking to squeeze every ounce of torque of every HP out of her, I need her to be reliable and comfortable too. But I figure the above, that'll put 480?HP at the wheels, and that is more than fine to start. I figure if the Lincoln ecoboost can put down 490 at the crank, it should be reliable for 480 at the wheels.

Anyway, this is long enough, but I'm an electrical guy, I'm an enginerd and I work for myself. I saw another post about wanting the double-blink like the interceptors do, and I thought how easily that can be done. I'll reply to that post in a bit. But, I hope to learn a lot from you all, I and I'll do my best to contribute to this group!

Cheers,

-Brian

Welcome to the forum

 

[Bwinter714]

Thanks for all the replies!

possibly, but he said he let his foot off of the gas and the ass end kicked out. I doubt that only his rear end hydroplaned

Typing on my phone so bear with me!

But yeah, from what I gathered looking at the footage (finally watched it) I was a bit right of center actually in the left lane. My steering angle was about 5 degrees. When I let off the gas, like you mentioned, the weight shifted to a more neutral position. My 10" rear tires were probably already hanging on by a thread, as this was a torrential downpour, and going uphill into the rain, there was quite a bit of water coming down the mountain. So because of my steering angle and velocity, my skinnier fronts were doing most of the gripping. And, the tires were at about 60% tread, I was going to retire them in a month when I put my snows on, so not ideal. But when I hit the standing water. My fronts were enough to not hydroplane, but the rear only needed a hint of help. And since I had angular momentum kept in check by the tires, when I lost rear traction that went out the window and my nose kept going the way I wanted. While the rear went straight, essentially kicking out the rear and the rest is history now. There were a whole lot of factors at play, and they all came together in the worst way as these things tend to do. But I can say that I'm thankful for walking away completely uninjured. Also, Nationwide was very fair. I paid $42k out the door for her, off the showroom floor in 2017. Since it was the last year for the SS they included it in their 20% off EOY sale, which along with the Corvette, they never did before. I ended up getting close to $32k, and it had 106k miles. I had an Xterra that was my winter car for the first 4 years before we moved from Maine. She owed me nothing, so I paid basically $10k to drive 100k+ miles for 5 years and a ton of smiles. I don't think I'll ever get that opportunity again! And on top of that, not a single issue in any of those miles. I took care of her, But I wasn't easy on the skinny pedal!

 

[Bwinter714]

Sorry to hear about the OBM

There are a few of us that own both

View attachment 14615

Oh man, she looks great! I never got her to the track like I wanted and she deserved. Make sure to give her an extra pat on the dash for me!

 

[Bwinter714]

We can see on the dyno above that it cost approximately 68 hp to convert between crank and whp. (400 crank - 332 whp = 68 at least on that dyno in whatever gear the pull was made). So, in this case (and remember every vehicle will be slightly different), we can add 68 hp to arrive at a crank hp level. So on 93 440 whp would be approx 508 crank. 486 whp on E50 would be 554.

For those who think that drivetrain loss equals a fixed percentage of crank hp, here's an analogy. Let's assume I pull out the ST engine and replace it with a 1200 crank hp supercharged Coyote engine. Since 68 hp is approximately 16% expressed as a percentage of the stock 400 crank hp, that would mean we could apply that to the 1200 chp engine. Does anyone seriously think that drivetrain losses will now amount to 192 HP (.16 * 1200)? And what force would suddenly cost us an additional 124 HP (192-68)? Perhaps we might introduce some additional friction via lubrication shear or thermal load due to same, but it certainly wouldn't amount to 124 extra HP.

I would tend to agree with that assessment. Power loss is mostly due to friction (I'm not an ME though) and I imagine would remain constant for a given drivetrain configuration. So I would assume that a platform like RWD would have less friction due to less mechanical transfer of power than AWD/4wd and therefore less loss at the output for a given input. Like you mentioned, if you suddenly replaced it with a Merlin V12 from a Spitfire, you wouldn't lose 16% of that output due solely to drivetrain loss. She might be a little nose-heavy though, careful in the rain haha.

But anyway, that's neither here nor there, I'm just looking forward to the next chapter, another new platform to learn and my first FI! I'm also looking forward to relearning my suspension mods and seeing what is out there now since my Maxima days. I never thought to touch the SS in terms of suspension, that mag ride control was glorious.

 

[boiler662]

Thanks for all the replies!



Typing on my phone so bear with me!

But yeah, from what I gathered looking at the footage (finally watched it) I was a bit right of center actually in the left lane. My steering angle was about 5 degrees. When I let off the gas, like you mentioned, the weight shifted to a more neutral position. My 10" rear tires were probably already hanging on by a thread, as this was a torrential downpour, and going uphill into the rain, there was quite a bit of water coming down the mountain. So because of my steering angle and velocity, my skinnier fronts were doing most of the gripping. And, the tires were at about 60% tread, I was going to retire them in a month when I put my snows on, so not ideal. But when I hit the standing water. My fronts were enough to not hydroplane, but the rear only needed a hint of help. And since I had angular momentum kept in check by the tires, when I lost rear traction that went out the window and my nose kept going the way I wanted. While the rear went straight, essentially kicking out the rear and the rest is history now. There were a whole lot of factors at play, and they all came together in the worst way as these things tend to do. But I can say that I'm thankful for walking away completely uninjured. Also, Nationwide was very fair. I paid $42k out the door for her, off the showroom floor in 2017. Since it was the last year for the SS they included it in their 20% off EOY sale, which along with the Corvette, they never did before. I ended up getting close to $32k, and it had 106k miles. I had an Xterra that was my winter car for the first 4 years before we moved from Maine. She owed me nothing, so I paid basically $10k to drive 100k+ miles for 5 years and a ton of smiles. I don't think I'll ever get that opportunity again! And on top of that, not a single issue in any of those miles. I took care of her, But I wasn't easy on the skinny pedal!

Just curious what tire was it on? I had a set of nitto 555 g2s for a while and hit a steady rain and damn near lost the back end, never again will I run those pieces of garbage.

 

[Bwinter714]

Just curious what tire was it on? I had a set of nitto 555 g2s for a while and hit a steady rain and damn near lost the back end, never again will I run those pieces of garbage.

They were Continental Extreme Contact UHP's. I've run those tires on most of my higher HP vehicles in the past, I've found that they have good grip and decent life, but can also handle the inevitable early and late season snow and slush without complaint. I never had an issue and would run them again. Not sure if they make them in 21's, I might size down for winter tires and or find a new high performance AS tire for the rest of the year. Note to self, Nitto 555 G2's are out of the question haha.

 

[TMac]

Sorry to hear about the OBM

There are a few of us that own both

View attachment 14615

OBM?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBM

 

[boiler662]

OBM?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBM

Hahaha

Holden always had creative names for their paint his was Orange Blast Metallic, I was always partial to jungle green myself....