Water to air intercooler

[TMac]

What pumps have you used?

If you're going to go that route, the pump would have to be sized appropriately based on BTUs added and removed. Ideally it would be variable speed with thermal control.

There are no scenarios in an ST where an air/water intercooler makes sense.

 

[UNBROKEN]

So I get there are going to be people here trying to justify why they think water to air is pointless and in most facts I would agree “cost” “power gains” not really worth it. Again I know the system and i am addressing the weak point before I have problems. This is not meant to be a debate about water vs air. Thermodynamics will favor water every time. Improper setup for an air to air or water to air can be detrimental to a specific persons goal. Maybe there needs to be another ST forum for fabricating and modifying that weeds out people just saying there opinions with nothing to support there claims. I’m still learning and am always going to try whatever is hard to come up with real facts and not just what someone else told me.

That group exists. I run it. lol

 

[TMac]

So I get there are going to be people here trying to justify why they think water to air is pointless and in most facts I would agree “cost” “power gains” not really worth it. Again I know the system and i am addressing the weak point before I have problems. This is not meant to be a debate about water vs air. Thermodynamics will favor water every time. Improper setup for an air to air or water to air can be detrimental to a specific persons goal. Maybe there needs to be another ST forum for fabricating and modifying that weeds out people just saying there opinions with nothing to support there claims. I’m still learning and am always going to try whatever is hard to come up with real facts and not just what someone else told me.

Thermodynamics don't favor water. Water just allows you to have a higher heat absorption number. Don't forget, once that water gets to a number above ambient, it also takes a lot longer to cool it. If you're using some sort of method to cool the liquid below ambient (ice, etc) it might work for a single drag race run, but once again, once above ambient, heat will stay in the intercooler much longer.

 

[Shawnanigans]

If you're going to go that route, the pump would have to be sized appropriately based on BTUs added and removed. Ideally it would be variable speed with thermal control.

There are no scenarios in an ST where an air/water intercooler makes sense.

Yeah I’m asking about what pumps have been used as I have only used the GT500 and the info about certain pumps are not consistent. I know of the variable ones but what is the benefit that you have experienced? What were the pros and cons?Has anyone built anything outside of there ST.

 

[TMac]

An air/water intercooler is not superior to an air intercooler and you won't find them in road racing. You will find them mostly where there are packaging constraints or roots-style superchargers where because of the packaging (supercharger is part of manifold), the compactness of the air/water intercooler makes sense. But it is in no way better.

Think of it this way: you could create the equivalent of an air water system from a very heavy bar and plate intercooler which could exhibit the same heat absorption properties of water and would have the same problems with expelling the heat in a timely manner- yet it would still be more efficient than a dual radiator system.

 

[TMac]

Yeah I’m asking about what pumps have been used as I have only used the GT500 and the info about certain pumps are not consistent. I know of the variable ones but what is the benefit that you have experienced? What were the pros and cons?Has anyone built anything outside of there ST.

You're not getting the reply you want because it's pointless to use an air/water setup.

 

[Shawnanigans]

Thermodynamics don't favor water. Water just allows you to have a higher heat absorption number. Don't forget, once that water gets to a number above ambient, it also takes a lot longer to cool it. If you're using some sort of method to cool the liquid below ambient (ice, etc) it might work for a single drag race run, but once again, once above ambient, heat will stay in the intercooler much longer.

You’re right about that it will stay longer if you don’t take that into account. That is why proper sizing is important but that would affect air as well. Like you stated earlier that it takes longer to heat soak water but when it does get heated it takes a bit longer to get back to ambient. This falls in to consistency as long as I properly address the heat exchanger. But again I’m not here for the pissing competition. I just want someone with experience to give me there two cents about my question, not inaccurate criticism.

 

[TMac]

You’re right about that it will stay longer if you don’t take that into account. That is why proper sizing is important but that would affect air as well. Like you stated earlier that it takes longer to heat soak water but when it does get heated it takes a bit longer to get back to ambient. This falls in to consistency as long as I properly address the heat exchanger. But again I’m not here for the pissing competition. I just want someone with experience to give me there two cents about my question, not inaccurate criticism.

It's not a "pissing competition". Any criticism you feel you're experiencing isn't "inaccurate". If you want to do something that raises IAT, adds weight, lowers efficiency, incorporates more failure points and introduces parasitic losses (pumping water isn't free) you're free to do so. You will need to do some complicated math to size your pump, or as I posted before, you can run a variable speed pump with thermal control. In any case, you need to do your own research.

Look at Davies Craig for solutions.

 

[Shawnanigans]

An air/water intercooler is not superior to an air intercooler and you won't find them in road racing. You will find them mostly where there are packaging constraints or roots-style superchargers where because of the packaging (supercharger is part of manifold), the compactness of the air/water intercooler makes sense. But it is in no way better.

Think of it this way: you could create the equivalent of an air water system from a very heavy bar and plate intercooler which could exhibit the same heat absorption properties of water and would have the same problems with expelling the heat in a timely manner- yet it would still be more efficient than a dual radiator system.

Again I agree with most of what you are saying. I’m not road racing because if I was just road racing then I’d for sure use air to air. Staging when I do go to the track water will take longer to heat so I would have better performance over just an air to air same with auto cross. Consistency is what I’m building. This is already installed and in use. I have seen night and day improvements over stock. But I can’t say for sure how it will compare to the $2000 air to air at WOT. If you are hell bent on not using it then maybe don’t reply as this post is not for you.

 

[Shawnanigans]

It's not a "pissing competition". Any criticism you feel you're experiencing isn't "inaccurate". If you want to do something that raises IAT, adds weight, lowers efficiency, incorporates more failure points and introduces parasitic losses (pumping water isn't free) you're free to do so. You will need to do some complicated math to size your pump, or as I posted before, you can run a variable speed pump with thermal control. In any case, you need to do your own research.

Look at Davies Craig for solutions.

I am more than aware of what you are saying and all have been considered in the build. Getting info for what pumps people have used and how it worked for them is what I have been asking. Not should I do it.

 

[UNBROKEN]

Again I agree with most of what you are saying. I’m not road racing because if I was just road racing then I’d for sure use air to air. Staging when I do go to the track water will take longer to heat so I would have better performance over just an air to air same with auto cross. Consistency is what I’m building. This is already installed and in use. I have seen night and day improvements over stock. But I can’t say for sure how it will compare to the $2000 air to air at WOT. If you are hell bent on not using it then maybe don’t reply as this post is not for you.

I just want to point out that there’s no $2000 air to air I’ve seen for these cars. Whipple is just over $1000 and CVF can be had for $900ish brand new. Not sure where you come up with $2K.

 

[Shawnanigans]

Thermodynamics don't favor water. Water just allows you to have a higher heat absorption number. Don't forget, once that water gets to a number above ambient, it also takes a lot longer to cool it. If you're using some sort of method to cool the liquid below ambient (ice, etc) it might work for a single drag race run, but once again, once above ambient, heat will stay in the intercooler much longer.

“Thermodynamics don't favor water. Water just allows you to have a higher heat absorption number”
Higher heat absorption numbers over what? Air? So then yes it does favor water!

 

[Cruising68]

What pumps have you used?
I know large engines with moderate boost really need higher capacity due to that. That’s more or less why I’m asking about pumps. I might auto cross and weekend drag but I want consistent temps and sitting in traffic or staging at an auto cross or drag event would be nice to reduce heat soak. I have other things done to prevent this.

Stock, varimax, and finally a reprogrammed Stewart EMD. Don’t remember the flow rate but it was huge, biggest available at the time that fit. Blew off fittings when I was initially testing and emptied the system in about 10 seconds. Definitely helped initial iats and the ramp rate to heat soak was better but I would still boil the coolant after a 20 minute session, albeit in the boost most of the time.

As tmac mentioned. There is a reason most turbos run air to air. With an intake style blower you lose a lot of efficiency with the relatively small intercooler in the blower but the packaging can be significantly smaller. I don’t know if water/air with huge intercoolers would be good but I still think you lose a lots of efficiency with two intercoolers as mentioned above.


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[Shawnanigans]

Stock, varimax, and finally a reprogrammed Stewart EMD. Don’t remember the flow rate but it was huge, biggest available at the time that fit. Blew off fittings when I was initially testing and emptied the system in about 10 seconds. Definitely helped initial iats and the ramp rate to heat soak was better but I would still boil the coolant after a 20 minute session, albeit in the boost most of the time.

As tmac mentioned. There is a reason most turbos run air to air. With an intake style blower you lose a lot of efficiency with the relatively small intercooler in the blower but the packaging can be significantly smaller. I don’t know if water/air with huge intercoolers would be good but I still think you lose a lots of efficiency with two intercoolers as mentioned above.


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I will look into Stewart EMD also was it reliable. My intercooler and routing is really short and the cooler is a aftermarket cooler for a s55 my heat exchanger 27x17x2.5” so it’s a bit over kill. My other concern was if I would have gone with the rule pumps you have next to no pressure so I would have to run 1” lines.

 

[Cruising68]

I will look into Stewart EMD also was it reliable. My intercooler and routing is really short and the cooler is a aftermarket cooler for a s55 my heat exchanger 27x17x2.5” so it’s a bit over kill. My other concern was if I would have gone with the rule pumps you have next to no pressure so I would have to run 1” lines.

Yeah, I ran 1” lines.


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[Shawnanigans]

Yeah, I ran 1” lines.


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What hp were you at when you were boiling? Were you using the stock manifold mounted itercooler? I’m only asking because I thought about building a custom intake manifold with a huge manifold mounted intercooler. Only dreams right now that would be unnecessary over kill.

 

[Shawnanigans]

Yeah, I ran 1” lines.


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Also how did the varimax hold up? Did you have 1” plumbing with that?

 

[Cruising68]

Varimax was stock plumbing and barely better than oem.

Big intercooler, Camaro supercharge lid with better intercooler, Much bigger tank, pulleyed blower, lt headers. I was running 700hp at the wheels.

Was a fun car to track but if I ever built a road race car again it would be either NA or turbo(s) with air to air cooling.


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[Shawnanigans]

Varimax was stock plumbing and barely better than oem.

Big intercooler, Camaro supercharge lid with better intercooler, Much bigger tank, pulleyed blower, lt headers. I was running 700hp at the wheels.

Was a fun car to track but if I ever built a road race car again it would be either NA or turbo(s) with air to air cooling.


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Good to know, so you wouldnt recommend the varimax as it is not much better than stock.
Did your Stewart really agitate the tank?
and I agree about not running water to air on road courses. My Eagle talon was my track car and I would have never put water to air on that as it was for time attack and most likely suffer similar draw back toward the end of runs that you mentioned. I would never road race the ST but it is fun to compete with friends in drag and autocross. especially autocross. If I were to build a monster in sheep clothes I would add meth but then that's starting to get out of hand.
I do appreciate your input.