JB4 thoughts

StoneColdBlue22 · May 1, 2022

hi all,

i found it interesting that theres a JB4 module for the ST. with all the talk about the rear diff failures and Ford getting tight on warranty work via ecu flashes, i thought this would be a safe alternative. the power gains wont be as much as a custom tune, but it can be removed for warranty work and no one would be the wiser. i had one on my 335i and my friend had one on his r56 mini cooper.

let me know your thoughts

LokiWolf · May 1, 2022

I am running one on my 21 150, because of lack of options for the 14th Gen 150’s. It is fine. Adds power, and does an OK job.

There are a few big pieces missing. The biggest is Trans tuning! This is speaking from a perspective of ZFG and the ST nothing beats the Trans tweaks. The 10R60 is a picky B! Throwing more power at it without addressing the shifting is a recipe for disaster!

Will it add power, yes. As much as a proper ZFG tune, Nope! Will it risk your trans more, YES.

Pay to play.

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StoneColdBlue22 · May 1, 2022

LokiWolf said:

i completely agree that a canned tune will never come close to a custom tune, and that trans tuning plays a huge part in the drivability of a vehicle.
just trying to make lemonade out of lemons

LokiWolf · May 1, 2022

StoneColdBlue22 said:

But the JB4 is not a canned tune. It is a fancy boost fooler. That is all. With the OBDII connection it can see many parameters, in order to protect things, but it does ZERO for the Trans. Most canned tunes at least do something.

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Kennyj81 · Oct 1, 2022

Bringing up an old thread, but just curious if there is anyone running this?

OGThorne · Oct 16, 2022

I'm currently working with Terry to get full support for the Explorer ST. The beta firmware is working pretty well so far!

About me:
I previouslly tuned tons of kia stingers with jb4's and helped set some of the first world records on the platform using the jb4.

UNBROKEN · Oct 16, 2022

OGThorne said:

Unless there’s trans tuning involved as mentioned earlier…this is a bad choice for the ST. What you did before with a different platform is irrelevant.

OGThorne · Oct 16, 2022

I do agree the transmission tuning is important on this platform My plan is to purchase the Ford calibration or the Whipple calibration and stack on top of it the JB4 so I can run e50 and race gas and other things and crank the boost up a little more.

This also isn't my first rodeo I used to be a calibrator for IPS Motorsports The only reason I haven't went after this car using HP tuners myself is because I don't have any experience with this 10-speed transmission everything I used to tune was LS based. With the occasional 5 l mustang.

TMac · Oct 16, 2022

Y'all should just stop trying to make the JB4 a "thing". Just another piggyback sensor fooler. There's only one reason to buy this thing over a good ECU/TCU tune- you think if you have engine problems you can disconnect it and make it Ford's fault. There's a word for that, and it isn't "integrity".

UNBROKEN · Oct 16, 2022

I actually have one one my daily GTI. Snagged it local for $150 from a kid that wasted his car. lol

OGThorne · Oct 16, 2022

TMac said:

Except for the fact that none of the tuners want to sell me and unlocked tune so I can adjust the calibration at the track based on what available race gas there is.

This gives me the freedom to adjust.

As a new member to this form I think it's a little s***** for you to immediately jump on and make assumptions that I'm trying to do something shady and blame Ford for anything.. you don't know me you don't know what I do you don't know anything about me but you're immediate response is malicious.

Just as some background I run a charity team that does car hacking and other hacking events and donates all the proceeds to charity. I also run an open source bot that people use to send JB4 logs to and it gives you a report and links you to a data zap graph So I'm a decent guy out here just trying to help folks out just to help out.

OGThorne · Oct 16, 2022

Just for proof here's pictures of the Tesla that my team won in 2019 and donated it's value to charity we let kids draw all over it as we saved art at a local school.

Maybe you shouldn't assume that everybody's malicious.

TMac · Oct 16, 2022

Relax- I didn't reply to your specific post, and I certainly didn't accuse you of anything "malicious". I don't know you, it isn't personal and I'm unsure as to why you became so defensive. If you read my post, I stated that buying a piggyback "over a good ECU/TCU tune". I was pointing out people (end users) who buy into JB4's literature of being able to disconnect so it couldn't be detected.

If you're into tuning, and you're working with a vehicle that has no ECU tuning support, a piggyback is one way to get some more horsepower, but on this platform IMHO it's not a viable solution.

OGThorne · Oct 16, 2022

So if this was like an LS I would 100% agree with you when you pay for it tune on an LS afterwards you can just go ahead and update that tune yourself if you need. I can't do that on this platform from what I understand.

Sorry for jumping your s*** I just felt like I was being attacked and I'm literally putting in my time to help the community out here and I put a lot of stuff into the community for the stinger guys and previously Subaru guys it's something I do because I enjoy doing it I don't do it for profit everything I do is for charity when it comes to cars...

So my goal with this was to be able to go run some MS109 or whatever race gas is available locally and add some more sauce. Later I might do charge pipe injection to attempt e85

TMac · Oct 16, 2022

I am not attacking you or what you do in any way. I'm just opposed to piggyback tuners in general and let me enumerate a few reasons: For example, when you override the boost reference signals you are also overriding the ST speed density system that requires that information for correct fuel control. The ST is not a MAF based system so the amount of boost is absolutely necessary at all times to calculate mass airflow.

Next, there is no way for a piggyback to adjust for wastegate PID control- that leads to boost spikes. That can be seen even with so-called professional ECU tunes who haven't done enough work to understand how to deal with those maps. With the ST's small turbines that can lead to detonation at lower RPM WOT- precisely where it can cause the most problems.

Finally, a piggyback can also not adjust any of the low-speed or high-speed detonation control maps which is what would save the engine in the circumstances I stated earlier. In the end, you can certainly add some more horsepower and likely the stock ECU correction ability will save your ass in the short term, but it's not a good strategy when a good tuner can access all of these control maps and give a good safe tune. Therefore, a piggyback- to be safe- is relegated to providing far less gains at more risk to components than a top tuner can provide via the ECU's control strategies.

That's not a knock on you as an individual or a tuner, that's a knock on using a piggyback on the ST.

OGThorne · Oct 16, 2022

TMAC

PID Control is possible with a JB4, It's not working yet on the explorer ST but worked fine on the stingers

Airmass your correct, BUT your forgetting that its a full time closed loop car similar to BMW's and Stingers, Meaning when you add boost it can't see the car still knows to adjust air fuel using fuel trims

Air fuel control is not supported today but on the stinger we had the ability to lean the car out further.

You are incorrect in regard to the knock strategy on this platform, This is why so many tuners are selling auto octane tunes and the fact that you can run 87 in it in a pinch.

Your are correct in that you can't optimize to the nth.

All those items being said, The same issues exist on BMW and Stinger's, Trust me I was disheartened when i pulled the rom and looked at it and it was so much diffrent than all of the other platforms I've tuned. I left tuning to go back into INFOSEC so i never did much with Direct injection or full time closed loop.

TMac · Oct 16, 2022

PID Control is possible with a JB4, It's not working yet on the explorer ST but worked fine on the stingers

Since those settings are in the ECU map, I don't see how that's possible.

Airmass your correct, BUT your forgetting that its a full time closed loop car similar to BMW's and Stingers, Meaning when you add boost it can't see the car still knows to adjust air fuel using fuel trims

It is a closed loop system in that it can use the widebands to correct, but what about latency in a WOT full boost operation? Not something I want to trust my engine to react to real-time. I can't even imagine how many DTCs one will throw or how skewed the correction maps will be to deal with the resultant "lean boost" situations safely.

You are incorrect in regard to the knock strategy on this platform, This is why so many tuners are selling auto octane tunes and the fact that you can run 87 in it in a pinch.

No, I'm not incorrect. That is a factor in the knock detonation strategy that I alluded to earlier. It's part of the underlying ECU's strategy and can be adjusted via the LSPI maps- not by the piggyback.And those tuners (like Monster Tune) specifically target those maps to exploit a segment of the "auto tune" market. And this isn't some magic- it's built into the ECU's adaptation strategy as well.

The fact that a piggyback "can" work isn't my point. It's reliability and longevity. I use my engineering knowledge to advise (and maybe educate) members of this community. I would never recommend a piggyback for this platform.

Now if this were an early '90s MR2- where I used a VPC, FCD, Profec, etc. Then a piggyback(s) was useful- but it still wasn't safe!

OGThorne · Oct 16, 2022

I'm just correcting your invalid assumptions.

Let me explain the EWG were used on multiple platforms you wire them into the JB4 on a specific pin then you run them over to the wastegate this allows you to adjust wastegate directyl

Same can be done with oxygen sensors .

By your own admission you don't understand how the product actually works or what it's capable of So why are you so quick to attack it do you work for one of the tuning shops.

And I think we're both agreeing that the ability to adjust for octane on the fly is part of the default strategy in the ECU.

As for check engine lights I've not thrown a single one yet on my wife's SUV and I never threw any on my stinger related.

You're quick to make a lot of assumptions with no experience using the product and I'm assuming you're not a calibrator since the things you said about this platform are not completely accurate.

Wouldn't it be nice to have an option to run close to e85 without having to have new direct injection injectors and high pressure pump??

Flex fuel is possible with the jb4 on other platforms. Which is why do many folks stack them with a ECU tune.

UNBROKEN · Oct 16, 2022

FYI there are already tunes out to run straight E85. No HPFP or injectors needed.

TMac · Oct 16, 2022

I'm just correcting your invalid assumptions.

They are NOT invalid, nor are they "assumptions". You're so busy defending the product that you've lost perspective on what this conversation is about.

Let me explain the EWG were used on multiple platforms you wire them into the JB4 on a specific pin then you run them over to the wastegate this allows you to adjust wastegate directyl

And what does this have to do with the ST which does not have external wastegates? Are you aware that it uses vacuum operated wastegates and that specific implementation allows it to open them at any time? Are we to believe that the JB4 will employ the appropriate strategies for fuel mileage, low/closed-throttle pressure alleviation, and overboost situation just because you say so? Especially since it doesn't have control over those wastegates?!!

Same can be done with oxygen sensors .

And besides saying it "can be done", what does this have to do with latency? The JB4 is already able (according to literature) to read the canbus info, so why would it need direct reading of the O2 sensors?

By your own admission you don't understand how the product actually works or what it's capable of So why are you so quick to attack it do you work for one of the tuning shops.

I didn't make any sort of admission that I don't understand how the product works- I understand very well how it works! And, I'm not attacking it, I'm pointing out its shortcomings and why an ST owner shouldn't bother with it.

And I think we're both agreeing that the ability to adjust for octane on the fly is part of the default strategy in the ECU.

Yes, we're in agreement on that.

As for check engine lights I've not thrown a single one yet on my wife's SUV and I never threw any on my stinger related.

I'm happy for you. Still not sure what this has to do with an ST.

You're quick to make a lot of assumptions with no experience using the product and I'm assuming you're not a calibrator since the things you said about this platform are not completely accurate.

I'm an engineer, not a tuner (at least not on the ST), not a "calibrator" whatever that is, and when someone is obviously just defending a product and isn't able to talk in terms of engineering, then it's pointless to debate you.

You're new to this site, and as such, I'm trying to be nice. But if you want to question my "assumptions", and back it up with anecdotal evidence of "it could, it should, it did on another platform", you undermine your own case. Now since I sense you're one of those types who has to have the last word, continue posting. This is my last post- I'm not going to continue giving you credibility by arguing with you over the internet.

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