Other turbo upgrade options?

jwuonog · Apr 10, 2023

I know that there are upgrades available from CR Performance and Pure, that basically modify the stock turbos.

Do these generate significantly more heat than the stock ones, since they are still using the stock frame?

Are there any other options in development? I'm no fabricator, but I imagine an adapter from the head to a v-band and then an adapter from the turbine outlet to the downpipe could allow for a lot more options. Is there enough room for anything bigger there?

TMac · Apr 10, 2023

@jwuonog This has been discussed. Any larger frame turbos are going to change the centerline of the turbine outlet and compressor inlet relative to the head. Especially since you would have to fab a v-band or T3 adapter. That means fabrication of downpipes, intake pipes, and hot side outlets. Certainly can be done but it gets expensive in a hurry. There is also the challenge of moving away from the factory vacuum-pump operated wastegates to pressure wastegates. This has been done by ZFG with Xona turbos so it's possible, but more expense.

I've advocated that due to the amount of fabrication that it's actually cheaper to go to a single turbo.

As far as "generate significantly more heat", I'm not sure exactly what you mean.

jwuonog · Apr 10, 2023

TMac said:

Turbo upgrades similar to the CR/Pure were used on the Focus ST, where the internals would get upgraded, sometimes the housing would be ported too. The stock turbo size was so small that it generated way too much heat with the upgraded parts. While it made more power, it also led to issues to the excessive heat. To give an idea, the stock turbine wheel on the exhaust side is about the size of a quarter. I imagine this is not an issue on the Explorer since the stock turbos are much bigger.

Looking at the engine bay, I could see room for a single, maybe in the area where the stock airbox sits.

TMac · Apr 10, 2023

jwuonog said:

Turbo upgrades similar to the CR/Pure were used on the Focus ST, where the internals would get upgraded, sometimes the housing would be ported too. The stock turbo size was so small that it generated way too much heat with the upgraded parts. While it made more power, it also led to issues to the excessive heat. To give an idea, the stock turbine wheel on the exhaust side is about the size of a quarter. I imagine this is not an issue on the Explorer since the stock turbos are much bigger.

Looking at the engine bay, I could see room for a single, maybe in the area where the stock airbox sits.

Yep.

UNBROKEN · Apr 10, 2023

jwuonog said:

Turbo upgrades similar to the CR/Pure were used on the Focus ST, where the internals would get upgraded, sometimes the housing would be ported too. The stock turbo size was so small that it generated way too much heat with the upgraded parts. While it made more power, it also led to issues to the excessive heat. To give an idea, the stock turbine wheel on the exhaust side is about the size of a quarter. I imagine this is not an issue on the Explorer since the stock turbos are much bigger.

Looking at the engine bay, I could see room for a single, maybe in the area where the stock airbox sits.

Nope…still about the size of a quarter. lol

TMac · Apr 10, 2023

To be clear, my "yep" was in response to the airbox comment.

FLHRXS · Apr 17, 2023

Ok looking for some more guidance on Turbos. For someone just looking to maximize bolt on performance who isn’t capable of making one turbo to replace the two, what kind of results can you expect from, say, sending your turbos to Whoosh Motorsports for a Pure Turbo rebuild?

And a second question, when do you need to upgrade the fuel pump and injectors? Is that necessary if you upgrade turbos?

TMac · Apr 17, 2023

It's very hard to say. I've seen a few dyno results, but they are apples to oranges since the mod list and fueling is very different. A completely stock ST on 93 can make around 440 WHP. I've seen the modded turbos make as much as 560 WHP on 104 octane gasoline with a LOT of other mods.

I would guesstimate that just replacing the stock turbos and cats and running 93 would only be worth about 30-40HP- if that.

The real problem is that you're only getting the addition from the less restrictive turbine. To make more HP with the upgraded turbos requires a higher pressure ratio (more boost) which is going to require more octane (impractical for a street car) or ethanol. Once you get a bit above 500 WHP on an e50 tune, you need to upgrade the fuel system.

FLHRXS · Apr 17, 2023

Best gas we have in North Phoenix that I have seen so far is 91. And so far haven’t come across any ethanol options. So sounds like for me that doesn’t make sense. So I guess aside from cosmetic improvements (looks or sound), really the only way to get more power from these trucks in a cost effective manner is to add an intercooler and a tune. Seems like the rest while fun won’t improve performance measurably. Does that about sum it up for people that just want to run 91 octane fuel?

TMac · Apr 17, 2023

FLHRXS said:

That's what I would do. The bang for the buck for a good tune can't be beat. And in Phoenix (used to live in Scottsdale and Tucson), the intercooler is a must.

FLHRXS · Apr 17, 2023

TMac said:

Thanks. That is what I was thinking. I always try to maximize cooling in my vehicles. My Miata has an oil cooler, transmission cooler and a diff cooler. Plus I added hood vents. Keeps it nice and cool day to day and doesn’t heat up as much as it otherwise would on the track (which I rarely go too).

I have ordered the intercooler from CVFab and some other fun handling parts (all except springs) from Steeda. The only upgrade I’m still contemplating is a set of downpipes. Got sidetracked by discussion on another thread about defoulers and now not sure which option is the best. It sounds like it’s SPD with their optional upgraded cats but that system is $2500. Is it worth it? I’ll be keeping this car for at least 5 years or more.

TMac · Apr 17, 2023

FLHRXS said:

Others (especially vendors) might not agree, but I wouldn't bother with aftermarket cats on the stock turbos. If you have the extra $600 to spend, I'd spend it on the aFe intake instead. At 91 octane and a tune, it's not going to make any big difference, but it looks great and if the performance bug keeps biting and you upgrade the turbos it won't be a waste.

Dale5403 · Apr 17, 2023

FLHRXS said:

Thanks. That is what I was thinking. I always try to maximize cooling in my vehicles. My Miata has an oil cooler, transmission cooler and a diff cooler. Plus I added hood vents. Keeps it nice and cool day to day and doesn’t heat up as much as it otherwise would on the track (which I rarely go too).

I have ordered the intercooler from CVFab and some other fun handling parts (all except springs) from Steeda. The only upgrade I’m still contemplating is a set of downpipes. Got sidetracked by discussion on another thread about defoulers and now not sure which option is the best. It sounds like it’s SPD with their optional upgraded cats but that system is $2500. Is it worth it? I’ll be keeping this car for at least 5 years or more.

To help with the heat you might consider a vented hhod.

https://www.i-5autohaus.com/product-page/i-5-explorer-aluminum-hood-20-22

FLHRXS · Apr 17, 2023

Dale5403 said:

Not a bad idea but no way I’m replacing the hood after what I have spent on PPF to cover the entire front of the car. If someone made ones that can be installed into the existing hood I’d consider them after I saw some pics of other people that had installed them and gave good reviews.

Dale5403 · Apr 17, 2023

FLHRXS said:

Check with @UNBROKEN . He had found some vents that he was going to install but i did not find where he ever did.

FLHRXS · Apr 17, 2023

TMac said:

Thanks, Tmac. I’m surprised though at your answer. From everything I have read that you and Unroken, there were no gains to be had from either the AFE intake or an exhaust. Why do you recommend the AFE intake rather than a better set of downpipes? Will changing downpipes only net any MPG gains or power with a tune feel ZFG? What about the intake? When all parts are installed I’ll spring for the 91 octane ZFG tune… thanks for your wisdom!

TMac · Apr 18, 2023

If you're going to be running a 91 tune in PHX, neither the cats nor the intake will make much difference. I also have stuck by saying it's going to save labor to replace the cats when one replaces turbos. None of these mods are going to increase your gas mileage.

FLHRXS · Apr 18, 2023

Thanks Tmac. I’d spring for the turbo upgrades but no one seems enthralled with the performance gains by upgrading the stock turbos and I have not seen any aftermarket companies with a packaged single turbo option for sale.

TMac · Apr 18, 2023

FLHRXS said:

No turbo option is going to make much of a difference if you're fuel/octane limited. There are definitely gains to be made via a larger A/R or wheel on the turbine side, but unless you can run a higher pressure ratio on the compressor side, the only thing that a larger compressor might supply is higher compressor efficiency. If you do the math, a larger compressor might have a higher efficiency, but only at higher mass airflow numbers, and even then, a 5% better efficiency is nowhere near 5% more HP. A 5% more efficient intercooler will have a better HP outcome than 5% better compressor efficiency.

As far as the Pure/CR turbos, I'm not a fan unless you're willing to run ethanol, and even then, as I noted in my single turbo thread, cost-wise and potential-wise you'd be better running a single turbo than those upgrades. They also don't have any compressor or turbine charts that I can find, and both are probably the same as they seem to use the same Turbozentrum compressor wheel. I'm not hating on those options, if you want a purely bolt-on, they are better options than the stockers. But for anyone reading this, if you're going to run a 91 or 93 tune, upgraded turbos of any sort are not going to produce huge power.

bosephbarking · Apr 18, 2023

If I was going to look at anything I'd want a ceramic ball bearing turbo with a slightly higher A/R ratio. Then again that would only be to bring in power a little sooner with a bit more overhead. Ball bearing turbos will spool a fair bit faster and hit max speed sooner. They are also more resilient than the stock ones.

As TMAC said you would need significant changes to really used turbos. You'll need to run E85 or race fuel to have enough octane to benefit. If you go full E85 you will need larger injectors since it takes more E85 to make HP over straight gasoline.

For a large single turbo I'd get some custom twin scroll headers built and go with a Borg Warner EFR series turbo. The 9174 would flow a magnificent amount of air. (It's capable of moving 95 lb/min yes lbs of air)

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