10R60 Transmission

[TMac]

Any mechanical or electrical device has certain tolerances, so it's not a stretch that there would be differences between vehicles. My original point was that I doubted fluid had anything to do with the problem and that it was due to either clutch slippage, or software intervention.

If it's the first case, (clutch slippage), I wouldn't expect an immediate gear disengagement followed by it hitting the rev limiter- see what I'm saying? It's not good engineering to employ a mechanical mechanism for torque control when you can do it through software. The very fact that others aren't having these problems would bear that out.

If you've ever owned a car with a bad clutch you know what I mean. It only makes sense that the software is engaging the clutch. Unfortunately, I don't know what the exact circumstances are. I still haven't heard anyone tell me whether they had wheelspin- that could be the reason. It could also be that the whatever sensors are being used to detect torque (and there are a few different mechanisms), have decided that you're over the limit.

It's no consolation, but if you're having this problem and your tuner can't find tables that modify torque control, you're going to have to live with it. You could try having your tuner shift the torque to a higher RPM- that might work and would be an interesting experiment.

 

[FORZDA3]

I’ll throw my opinion in here as well. I have the 10R80 in my Raptor and obviously the 10R60 in the ExST. The only time I’ve noticed the trans wasn’t happy was if you beat on it before it’s up to full temp. I mean at least 180F. Yes, it will act like it’s slipping because it is indeed like @TMac said. The engine makes more power when it’s cooler and the trans will hold less torque. There’s a price to pay in patience to ensure the drivetrain is fully up to temp before playing.

edit: It’s fine when 100% stock. Problems when tuned +100hp/tq

 

[GearHead_1]

I don't want to duplicate posts and there are quite a few trans threads on the forum. I just started yet another one. If you have transmission problems, take a look at this TSB.

https://www.explorerst.org/threads/transmission-problems-and-recent-tsb.5828/

 

[theotherwhitemeat]

This is why people like manual transmissions. There’s like 3 or 5 things that can fail, all mechanical, all easy to diagnose. Anyways.

@TMac what are your thoughts on the likelihood this can be solved with a built transmission? That’d solve the issue if it were related to clutch engagement? But likely not if there were some software threshold detected by the TCU that’s resulting in disengagement .

I didn’t see any references to the torque converter being a possible source of failure in the TSB @GearHead_1 posted. Could that also be a source of failure here?

 

[FORZDA3]

Note that the related TSB says the vehicle must have ALL of the indicated problems, including at least one of the listed OBD fault codes.
If you want real information based on the tuned vehicles transmission results, email Adam at ZFG racing.

edit: I REALLY like the 10spd auto transmissions and I’m a manual guy for sure.

 

[GearHead_1]

Note that the related TSB says the vehicle must have ALL of the indicated problems, including at least one of the listed OBD fault codes...

That isn't how I read that TSB.

It says it must be one of the listed vehicles, Explorer, check.

It then says it must have one of the listed transmissions, 10R60, check.

It then says it must have at least one of the following conditions.

It lists at least 20 different trouble codes or

- Harsh engagement
- Delayed engagement
- Harsh shift
- Delayed shift

That list is long but it does not indicate that all of those conditions must be met.

 

[mycbtech]

I’ll throw my opinion in here as well. I have the 10R80 in my Raptor and obviously the 10R60 in the ExST. The only time I’ve noticed the trans wasn’t happy was if you beat on it before it’s up to full temp. I mean at least 180F. Yes, it will act like it’s slipping because it is indeed like @TMac said. The engine makes more power when it’s cooler and the trans will hold less torque. There’s a price to pay in patience to ensure the drivetrain is fully up to temp before playing.

edit: It’s fine when 100% stock. Problems when tuned +100hp/tq

this makes a lot of sense for me. when i first got to the drag strip, the car didnt fall on its face....buuut i dont drag race very much at all (im more road race HPDE driver) so my start could have been bad - the car was also still warm. the other times I got to the line the car had been sitting for about 30-45 minutes so it was plenty cold.

If you've ever owned a car with a bad clutch you know what I mean. It only makes sense that the software is engaging the clutch. Unfortunately, I don't know what the exact circumstances are. I still haven't heard anyone tell me whether they had wheelspin- that could be the reason. It could also be that the whatever sensors are being used to detect torque (and there are a few different mechanisms), have decided that you're over the limit.

I myself havent had any wheel spin that I was aware of when I was doing data logs for Adam. I was consistantly able to have the car fall on its face even after several pulls.

 

[F=MA]

TMac: I have the ZFG Performance 93 octane tune. When I launch, there's a bit of wheelspin.

In other news: the trans fluid is now at 3.5. I'll update the thread if I have additional slip events. I'm sure I will. I should probably just not launch at 100% until I bite the bullet on a built transmission.

View attachment 18208

I noticed quite a few posts saying folks were going to shops to check the transmission fluid levels and add fluid at the cost of an hour or two of labor. You can definitely accomplish this in your driveway with a couple 2x4 boards under the tires and a 19mm flexible head wrench. I did have to use an extension on the wrench to get the plug loose. I can't believe how torqued it was.

View attachment 18209
View attachment 18210

Could you check it cold to see where the level is now you know it's 3.5 hot? We all want to know if there is a cold reading that is reliable on the dipstick. This is a similar situation to driving up onto a ramp, laying under you car to remove the sound insulation and then splash hot oil around into a pan and then reassemble and then go up top to change the oil filter and then add oil when it can all be done from the top with an evac tool avoiding many dangerous situations. Unless the level is off the scale then why check it hot if you can check it cold. This engineering has to include one or two Kansas State graduates.

 

[Mr_JD]

Sorry to resurrect an older thread, but did anyone ever get further detail on this?

I hit the track yesterday. On all 4 runs I would launch hard and have the same exact issue. Launch at 3k rpm, no wheel slip at all. Car falls on its face coming out of 1st, bounce off rev limiter. Let off accelerator, then get right back on it. Car would instantly correct and take off. Advanced trac off completely with each run. Car was warm, trans was warm. Temps outside were 75° so not overly hot/heat soaked.

Is it a software issue or am I exceeding stock trans limitations? ZFG E50 tune, all your basic bolt-ons. Time for upgraded trans?

I have video too, outside and inside car if anyone is interested.

 

[bluesnake01]

Sorry to resurrect an older thread, but did anyone ever get further detail on this?

I hit the track yesterday. On all 4 runs I would launch hard and have the same exact issue. Launch at 3k rpm, no wheel slip at all. Car falls on its face coming out of 1st, bounce off rev limiter. Let off accelerator, then get right back on it. Car would instantly correct and take off. Advanced trac off completely with each run. Car was warm, trans was warm. Temps outside were 75° so not overly hot/heat soaked.

Is it a software issue or am I exceeding stock trans limitations? ZFG E50 tune, all your basic bolt-ons. Time for upgraded trans?

I have video too, outside and inside car if anyone is interested.

People are running 600 WHP with the stock trans with no issues and look to be the limit, so you still have a bit more to go if its full bolt on's with E50.

You should log it and send it to Adam hopefully catching something, maybe he can give you more insight on whats happening? Unfortunately, not everyone has this issue.

You can also send it with the TSB @GearHead_1 posted

 

[WFO-TSi]

Sorry to resurrect an older thread, but did anyone ever get further detail on this?

I hit the track yesterday. On all 4 runs I would launch hard and have the same exact issue. Launch at 3k rpm, no wheel slip at all. Car falls on its face coming out of 1st, bounce off rev limiter. Let off accelerator, then get right back on it. Car would instantly correct and take off. Advanced trac off completely with each run. Car was warm, trans was warm. Temps outside were 75° so not overly hot/heat soaked.

Is it a software issue or am I exceeding stock trans limitations? ZFG E50 tune, all your basic bolt-ons. Time for upgraded trans?

I have video too, outside and inside car if anyone is interested.

Mine did the same untill I read this:

List of common mistakes and issues when increasing performance on Explorer ST platform | Explorer ST Forum

I added transmission fluid until it showed full and added 1/2 a quart more. Hopefully that helps!

 

[theotherwhitemeat]

Sorry to resurrect an older thread, but did anyone ever get further detail on this?

I hit the track yesterday. On all 4 runs I would launch hard and have the same exact issue. Launch at 3k rpm, no wheel slip at all. Car falls on its face coming out of 1st, bounce off rev limiter. Let off accelerator, then get right back on it. Car would instantly correct and take off. Advanced trac off completely with each run. Car was warm, trans was warm. Temps outside were 75° so not overly hot/heat soaked.

Is it a software issue or am I exceeding stock trans limitations? ZFG E50 tune, all your basic bolt-ons. Time for upgraded trans?

I have video too, outside and inside car if anyone is interested.

Check your trans fluid level my dude. Then you've got a couple options for building it, if you take that route. RSA or Pure Drivetrain Solutions.

https://rsarace.com/products/stage-1-10r60-customer-supplied-core
https://www.puredrivetrainsolutions.com/ford

Pure doesn't show the 10R60 on their site, but they do build them. That's who did mine. This resolved the issue for me, but the cost is outlandish as you're paying to have it removed, shipped to the builder, shipped back, and then re-installed. The built trans is only half the cost.

 

[TomK]

So for the dumb question, how will I know if it’s between 206° and 215°. would a 15 minute drive in normal traffic. Headed to within that range? Also, should the engine be running when checking?

I used the "Autool AS505 Transmission Fluid Tester". Bought it from Amazon for $34.99. You can find cheaper prices now. It gives the transmission temp. and the quality of the oil. When I last checked my ST's trans level & temp (23,700 mi.), the oil quality was @ 40%. Had to add a quart to bring it close to 3.0. Should be 2.5-2.7 oper. temp, didn't have enough oil w/me. You will need gloves and a flex-head long ext. box wrench too. Trans gets really hot after 5 minutes and temps. not even @ 180-215 degrees yet! It's also right next to your exhaust pipe. So, you'll get burned either way. lol...yes, engine needs to be running. lol