10R60 Transmission

[Dale5403]

What a great Video. Answered most questions I had in regards to the tranny. Mine didn't want to shift out of 6th on a WOT freeway ramp entry pull yesterday going to redline and I finally had to let off. Freaked me out. Also the shifts in sport mode are terrible but I wasn't too concerned since that's been a known issue. Not sure if it's too full, too low, or other issues. So first thing I need to do is get under there and check level. At 14K right now. How in the hell do you fill with fluid..........must have to use a squeeze bottle and hose??

I've seen where a pump was used to add fluid.

 

[Cruising68]

It is definitely a PITA to check! Not as bad as my CTS-V, no way to do the fluid check without burning the F out of the backside of your hand on the headers

 

[StarWhite22]

So when I had recent service at the dealer I asked them to check the transmission fluid level. They told me it would cost approx $250 because they have to get it up to operating temp and then do “whatever they need to do” to check the fluid level.

uhhhhhhh hard pass on that. Ridiculous and insane!

 

[UNBROKEN]

So when I had recent service at the dealer I asked them to check the transmission fluid level. They told me it would cost approx $250 because they have to get it up to operating temp and then do “whatever they need to do” to check the fluid level.

uhhhhhhh hard pass on that. Ridiculous and insane!

They’re not wrong. They have to drive it to get it up to temp…it can take 20-30 minutes to get it above 205° where it needs to be. Then they have to get it up on a lift, remove the cap and finally get to the dipstick. It’s not a 30 second job and shop rates are there for a reason. I don’t know what their hourly rate is but I’d guess they charge an hour minimum.

 

[StarWhite22]

Oh I get it for sure it’s just seems like a crazy design from Ford to have that type of a system in place just to check the transmission fluid.

 

[Greywolf]

So I finally got around to taking my 2022 explorer to my mechanic today to check the tranny fluid level.
He told me I was crazy since it’s a brand new vehicle. Why check it. I told him just do me a favor and check it. After battling to remove the dipstick cap, I watched him check it five different times. He showed me and he was amazed that it was just a slight bit lower than the 4.5 mark with only 4k miles driven since I bought it new. Obviously another **** up from Ford. I told him to just take an a pint of fluid and let’s see where it goes. After checking it again we’re at the 3.5. Mark told him to leave it alone.
Cost me 70 bucks but I think well worth it.
I wouldn’t trust letting those ford techs touch a burnt end of a stick.

 

[theotherwhitemeat]

My 2021 ST is slipping in-gear as well. With a tune, it wouldn't shift 1-2 at WOT reliably. I even had a 3rd gear WOT run slip and go straight to redline. It usually shifts fine at lower power levels and when I'm not at WOT.

I just checked my trans fluid in my driveway. It's between 4.5 and 5 - I'm guessing a quart low. (Yes, the trans was at the right temp and the vehicle was running. Yes, I burnt myself a little bit on the downpipe.)

Getting the plug and dipstick out was not fun. Ford must have set this bitch to 100ft lbs of torque. The plug is also aluminum, so it didn't strip, but definitely smeared the friction surface.

I'm hoping adding a quart will either resolve or improve the shifting weirdness. Will report back...

 

[TMac]

As has been written in numerous other posts, the 10R60 has an integral clutch in the torque converter. So, it's not your 30 year old torque converter. Which means, you could either be exceeding the torque capacity of the clutch (slippage), or the software is purposely limiting the torque by engaging the clutch to save the transmission. There are other cases where that same slippage may be under software control due to the traction control system.

The events described as "slipping" under tuned conditions under WOT are not fluid problems IMHO.

 

[Dale5403]

Did you check it at running temperature with the motor running?

 

[Greywolf]

Yes, you need to be between 3 and 4.5. Keep in mind it takes a pint 16oz to raise it one whole number so I’m thinking if you add a quart it would be way too much. And make sure that you first drove the car around for around 20 minutes

My 2021 ST is slipping in-gear as well. With a tune, it wouldn't shift 1-2 at WOT reliably. I even had a 3rd gear WOT run slip and go straight to redline. It usually shifts fine at lower power levels and when I'm not at WOT.

I just checked my trans fluid in my driveway. It's between 4.5 and 5 - I'm guessing a quart low. (Yes, the trans was at the right temp and the vehicle was running. Yes, I burnt myself a little bit on the downpipe.)



Getting the plug and dipstick out was not fun. Ford must have set this bitch to 100ft lbs of torque. The plug is also aluminum, so it didn't strip, but definitely smeared the friction surface.

I'm hoping adding a quart will either resolve or improve the shifting weirdness. Will report back...


View attachment 18195 View attachment 18196

 

[theotherwhitemeat]

Did you check it at running temperature with the motor running?

Oh, uh, are you asking me? Yes, this was in my post:

I just checked my trans fluid in my driveway. It's between 4.5 and 5 - I'm guessing a quart low. (Yes, the trans was at the right temp and the vehicle was running. Yes, I burnt myself a little bit on the downpipe.)

Also I'd like to note that if you check the fluid when the car isn't running and isn't as warm, the level is MUCH HIGHER on the stick. With the engine off and the trans a little cooler, the fluid was at the "2" mark on the dipstick.

 

[theotherwhitemeat]

As has been written in numerous other posts, the 10R60 has an integral clutch in the torque converter. So, it's not your 30 year old torque converter. Which means, you could either be exceeding the torque capacity of the clutch (slippage), or the software is purposely limiting the torque by engaging the clutch to save the transmission. There are other cases where that same slippage may be under software control due to the traction control system.

The slippage happens with traction control off, but I'm sure I have no idea what is wrong or if traction control being "off" means anything to the transmission or torque converter. The only mods I have are a ZFG tune and intercooler.

The events described as "slipping" under tuned conditions under WOT are not fluid problems IMHO.

It'd be nice if we could collate some data on this instead of all of us guessing. I'll let ya'll know if adding fluid helps.

 

[theotherwhitemeat]

Yes, you need to be between 3 and 4.5. Keep in mind it takes a pint 16oz to raise it one whole number so I’m thinking if you add a quart it would be way too much. And make sure that you first drove the car around for around 20 minutes

Good notes, thank you!

 

[TMac]

It'd be nice if we could collate some data on this instead of all of us guessing. I'll let ya'll know if adding fluid helps.

It's not a guess. This is well documented in the service manual and there are other threads on this site which document exactly the behavior you describe. And even with the traction control system "off", the software will still intervene in certain circumstances. The only "guess" on the traction control is under what specific circumstances it occurs. In your case, there are scores of posts that document the exact same behavior. As I posted, it could be clutch slippage, or it could be software attempting to limit torque to the transmission, but looking at the service manual diagnostics on the trans it absolutely can "slip" the clutch. In fact, as I've posted before, and according to the manual, it will do this multiple times without even throwing a code which makes diagnosis challenging.

 

[mycbtech]

The slippage happens with traction control off, but I'm sure I have no idea what is wrong or if traction control being "off" means anything to the transmission or torque converter. The only mods I have are a ZFG tune and intercooler.



It'd be nice if we could collate some data on this instead of all of us guessing. I'll let ya'll know if adding fluid helps.

I have the same issue. either we have a factory freak motor that makes more power than most or we got the friday-afternoon-ready-to-go-home weak ass trans build. I cant launch hard on at 1st gear without the the car redlining and slipping and falling on its face. I checked the fluid and mine was low as well but even after adding fluid it continued to fall on its face.

 

[theotherwhitemeat]

It's not a guess. This is well documented in the service manual and there are other threads on this site which document exactly the behavior you describe. And even with the traction control system "off", the software will still intervene in certain circumstances. The only "guess" on the traction control is under what specific circumstances it occurs. In your case, there are scores of posts that document the exact same behavior. As I posted, it could be clutch slippage, or it could be software attempting to limit torque to the transmission, but looking at the service manual diagnostics on the trans it absolutely can "slip" the clutch. In fact, as I've posted before, and according to the manual, it will do this multiple times without even throwing a code which makes diagnosis challenging.

I've read all those threads (and your posts in them, which I appreciate) as I'm attempting to diagnose this issue, I think the part I'm not understanding is why my particular transmission would have such a low threshold for slipping. I "only" have a perf tune and an intercooler. Meanwhile there are other STs making MUCH more power without this issue.

I have the same issue. either we have a factory freak motor that makes more power than most or we got the friday-afternoon-ready-to-go-home weak ass trans build. I cant launch hard on at 1st gear without the the car redlining and slipping and falling on its face. I checked the fluid and mine was low as well but even after adding fluid it continued to fall on its face.

I agree with you it is likely we have transmissions with an issue versus the possibility that our particular motors make some large amount of power. I'll get mine topped off this weekend and report back. I'm naively hopeful this will magically fix the issue...? TMac is convinced it's unrelated. I'd be really curious to know if anyone on the forum had this particular issue and solved it?

Meanwhile I'm emailing vendors to seek out built transmission options. I don't want to **** around with the dealer keeping my car for months only to not resolve the problem and I don't mind spending some money for a bullet-proof solution to future power concerns if I keep adding power mods. Also, I can't reproduce the issue when I'm not running the tune, which is consistent with the idea that this is power-threshold related.

 

[TMac]

I've read all those threads (and your posts in them, which I appreciate) as I'm attempting to diagnose this issue, I think the part I'm not understanding is why my particular transmission would have such a low threshold for slipping. I "only" have a perf tune and an intercooler. Meanwhile there are other STs making MUCH more power without this issue.



I agree with you it is likely we have transmissions with an issue versus the possibility that our particular motors make some large amount of power. I'll get mine topped off this weekend and report back. I'm naively hopeful this will magically fix the issue...? TMac is convinced it's unrelated. I'd be really curious to know if anyone on the forum had this particular issue and solved it?

Meanwhile I'm emailing vendors to seek out built transmission options. I don't want to **** around with the dealer keeping my car for months only to not resolve the problem and I don't mind spending some money for a bullet-proof solution to future power concerns if I keep adding power mods. Also, I can't reproduce the issue when I'm not running the tune, which is consistent with the idea that this is power-threshold related.

What tune are you running? Are you losing traction (wheelspin) when you do these launches? The very fact that it returns to working fine once the torque is decreased, in my mind, and applying some rigor to the analysis, says that either the software is limiting the torque or that the clutch is slipping. I would say it's the former.

 

[TMac]

It's anecdotal that " there are other STs making MUCH more power without this issue". The software that would inhibit torque to preserve the trans would be based upon measured torque, not HP. And if I were involved in the programming to save a transmission to limit warranty requests, I'd also base it on the RPM at which that torque event occurred. Higher torque at low RPMs is more harmful than at higher RPMs. And with the "small" turbos of the ST, you can easily exceed 500 lb/ft of torque at 2500-3000 RPM on this engine.

It may be that there are tables in the PCM that some tuners can adjust to change the parameters of when the PCM steps in to limit torque- it's why I asked you what tune you have. But in terms of power, 500 lb/ft at 6500 would result in approx 620 HP. But the stock turbos will never get you to that point.

My point is...if the only problem you're having is banging off the rev limiter at WOT on launches, and the car functions fine after that...it's not a fluid issue. It is the software stepping in due to torque limitation or traction control, or it is the clutch slipping.

 

[theotherwhitemeat]

TMac: I have the ZFG Performance 93 octane tune. When I launch, there's a bit of wheelspin.

In other news: the trans fluid is now at 3.5. I'll update the thread if I have additional slip events. I'm sure I will. I should probably just not launch at 100% until I bite the bullet on a built transmission.



I noticed quite a few posts saying folks were going to shops to check the transmission fluid levels and add fluid at the cost of an hour or two of labor. You can definitely accomplish this in your driveway with a couple 2x4 boards under the tires and a 19mm flexible head wrench. I did have to use an extension on the wrench to get the plug loose. I can't believe how torqued it was.

 

[mycbtech]

It's anecdotal that " there are other STs making MUCH more power without this issue". The software that would inhibit torque to preserve the trans would be based upon measured torque, not HP. And if I were involved in the programming to save a transmission to limit warranty requests, I'd also base it on the RPM at which that torque event occurred. Higher torque at low RPMs is more harmful than at higher RPMs. And with the "small" turbos of the ST, you can easily exceed 500 lb/ft of torque at 2500-3000 RPM on this engine.

It may be that there are tables in the PCM that some tuners can adjust to change the parameters of when the PCM steps in to limit torque- it's why I asked you what tune you have. But in terms of power, 500 lb/ft at 6500 would result in approx 620 HP. But the stock turbos will never get you to that point.

My point is...if the only problem you're having is banging off the rev limiter at WOT on launches, and the car functions fine after that...it's not a fluid issue. It is the software stepping in due to torque limitation or traction control, or it is the clutch slipping.

I can see what you mean of the possiblity of "anecdotal" reasons but the commonalities of folks having the shift issue is not one to ignore. a lot of folks, myself included, have a ZFG tune and are running into the dreaded redline 2nd gear faceflop. there are STs out there that people beat on that never seem to have this issue and can do run after run without a problem. Also I dont know about @theotherwhitemeat but after mine falls on its face it will go through a few rough 1-2 and even 3rd gear shifts until it either cools down or whatever.

I did some pulls when sending data logs to Adam and he said to have the fluid checked. it was low from the factory but after refilling it still falls on its face at launch so ‍♂️