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For those thinking about a "performance" exhaust system

FORZDA3

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#21
Excellent explanation. In fact, my 2015 CBR10S blah blah has SMALLER by ~2mm header pipes and staggered-merge collector for increased velocity in an attempt to give it some more power where it needs it, not at peak WOT power in a 500rpm window. It works.

If you’re racing spec sheets rather than real vehicles, that peak number can “win”. However, in a real vehicle you need good power everywhere. You know, under the curve vs a really big peak number.

The reason you see those short dump pipes out of the turbine in drag cars and most closed-wheel turbo race cars is that they are mainly concerned about max power at WOT, not necessarily a wide power band for overall drivability. Fact is, real race vehicles suck on the street.

Of course, YMMV
 

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#22
I've seen a few posts in the last week about exhaust sizing and the "lore" that bigger is better. I'll try to address why many people believe this, and why it's understandable, but incorrect. Much is based on the idea that the "less backpressure the better". While that statement is absolutely correct, the real question is how to effect minimal backpressure. I'll try to address this as best I can without getting too technical, but if you want a Twitter explanation, you should stop reading now!

First, let's take a look at a typical system on a supercharged or naturally aspirated engine. You have some type of exhaust manifold, with a high energy gas leaving the exhaust ports- generally into an individual pipe, culminating in some type of merge into a common area (the "collector") which is then connected to the exhaust. When the exhaust valve opens, the force of the exhaust energy (consisting of velocity, pressure, and heat) flows down an individual tube into the collector, resulting in more or less "laminar flow" i.e. the fluid (exhaust gas) is flowing more or less in parallel- there aren't major disruptions in the flow in the pipe due to swirls, eddies, or changes from velocity to pressure. Increases in diameter increase pressure, decreases increase velocity.

Now consider the turbine of the turbocharger which is a completely different animal. In this case, the exhaust energy flows down the exhaust port where it comes in contact with a turbine. As the gas expands through the turbine it imparts energy to the turbine, resulting in a loss of energy to the gas and because of the design of the turbine wheel, it also exits the turbine tangentially- meaning that it begins to spin or swirl. An exhaust pipe connected to this is basically confining a hurricane inside a tube. A very high quantity of that energy is directed in a helix around the outside of the tube while the "eye of the storm" at the center of the tube contains very little energy or flow, effectively reducing the flow capacity of the tube! Is it any wonder therefore, that those familiar with N/A engines and not understanding the phenomenon advocate large diameter exhaust systems on a turbine?

The real answer is not to increase the diameter of the pipe, it is to reintroduce laminar flow after the turbine. And to do that, we need to introduce a cone shaped transition by an increase of diameter followed by a sharp change of direction. I know it's hard to conceptualize, but the gradual change in diameter alters the angle of the helix while the directional change completes the "straightening" of the flow. Now take a look at an OEM cat for the ST engine and what do you see? There is a definitely increasing transition followed by a directional change leading to the converter which further enforces laminar flow. Still think those engineers are all stupid and purposely trying to limit your horsepower? Do those catless downpipes sold by some take any of this into consideration?

If you've hung with me this long, the second thing I have to address is the preceding post about having no exhaust whatsoever- after all wouldn't this create the absolutely lowest backpressure? No, and even if that were the case, it does NOT help overall performance. Why? Because number one, you need an exhaust to direct the gasses away from the vehicle, and second because such a strategy completely overlooks the concept of inertial energy. No matter what type of racing you're doing you modulate the gas pedal. You also shift and inertia of that exhaust energy helps performance in both cases.

Assume you're at WOT and you upshift. RPMS drop by 2000, and so does the exhaust energy exiting the exhaust port. Because the turbine still has a huge load due to driving the compressor, its RPM will drop precipitously. However, the residual exhaust energy that left at 6000 RPM is still traversing the exhaust pipe. The rapid transition between the two velocities creates a low pressure zone between them, helping to draw out the lower energy exhaust entering the turbine thus lessening the decrease of turbine speed. This in turn, lessens the decrease in compressor output. To put it in laymen's terms, the inertial energy of the exhaust gasses in the exhaust pipe make your car faster. Questions?
If you have any CFD analysis if this it might help people better understand, for some stupid reason I like reviewing them..... :ROFLMAO:
 

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Thread Starter #23
If you have any CFD analysis if this it might help people better understand, for some stupid reason I like reviewing them..... :ROFLMAO:
You are completely welcome to do this! Fact is, on this forum only a minuscule number of people care about threads like this. I just occasionally cringe when I see posts that propagate the same old misinformation over and over.
 

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TMac

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Thread Starter #24
I recently took a look at a an interesting internet article about a very fast ST.

https://www.fordmuscle.com/features...kis-exceptionally-fast-10-second-explorer-st/

Being an engineer and relentlessly curious, I'm looking at some of the choices made on that owner's recent modifications and although I'm very impressed at the quality of the welding, I'm less impressed at the exhaust design choices that were made. So, at the risk of criticism, and to offer some insight, I'd like to address a few points about the newest iteration of this build as it pertains to the exhaust.

If we look at the newest rendition, we have new top mounted twin turbos (cool) with external wastegates (cool) feeding into dual 3" exhausts (info from FB page). Incorporated into those 3" exhausts is a true "X" pipe. No matter how it's designed, as an "X" an "H" or some other bridged design, the concept and theory is to "balance" the exhaust flow. Now, for both of you that read my previous posts on this exhaust thread you'll remember that I encouraged smaller pipes, heat retention by minimizing surface area, and the re-introduction of laminar flow after the turbine to reduce backpressure. I also stressed that what might work for an N/A or supercharged engine may not translate to a turbocharged engine.

My previous posts should address why a dual 3" exhaust is not only unnecessary, but actually inhibits performance- unless one is talking about a 1,500+ hp engine. In the case of a 700 hp engine or even a 1000 hp engine, it's not helping anything, but if his goals are higher or it creates a pleasing tone, that's entirely up to him.

1646784524540.png

However, the most interesting item is the "X" pipe. Take a look at the link I posted above and ask yourself this question: What is this "X" pipe's purpose?

There are three schools of thought on a "balance pipe", "H" pipe, "X" pipe, etc. The first is that it creates a venturi effect that "sucks" out exhaust from one pipe to the other. Let's explore that a bit. A higher velocity gas in a tube creates a lower pressure than a lower velocity gas- which will exhibit more pressure. Carburetors use this technique to raise the velocity in a tube by accelerating it which creates a low pressure area into which fuel (at atmospheric pressure) is then "sucked" into the airstream. There is no doubt that at low RPMs there could be momentary surges of velocity from each bank- but this depends on the exhaust pulse timing and the pipe length and diameter being appropriately sized. How much racing are you doing at 2000 RPM? So think about it for a minute- which tube, coming from two symmetrical engine banks at 6000 RPM has a higher velocity? Neither. Doesn't that mean that these two "flows" are simply interfering with each other causing turbulence reducing the flow rate?

The second school of thought pertains to vehicles with mufflers after the balance pipe. In this case the thought is that the exhaust "sees" less restriction (pressure) since there are two mufflers rather than one. This scenario actually makes a bit of sense if you have very restrictive mufflers, and the pipes have a small shared area- In that case, a design like this makes sense: The flows have minimal interaction (assuming the co-joined throat is sized correctly) while still allowing some bleed-off when there is indeed a pressure differential. I'd suggest as minimal a bend as possible with a throat area no larger than 1/2 the pipe cross section.
1646784721300.png

The third school of thought involves "pressure wave tuning". In this scenario, we can use the length of a primary pipe (intake or exhaust) and harness the on-off flow of the ICE and an abrupt change of volume in the pipe (intake manifold, header collector, cylinder). The abrupt change in volume causes a rapid rise in pressure, and like hitting a drum head, that pressure "wave" is reflected back along the primary tube path. As the wave reflects, contrary to common sense, it actually causes the flow in the original direction to increase. Depending on the RPM and the length of the primary pipe one can use this phenomenon to increase torque peaks at certain RPM points. You've seen all sorts of "tuned port" intakes and exhaust primaries for 50+ years. This is one of the reasons you see strange bumps and depressions in a dyno chart (all else being equal). The problem is that this potential "reflection" the source (exhaust valve) and has already been pretty much exhausted by the turbine housing or collector to be meaningful.

If you've followed this far, you might be scratching your head and wondering, OK, TMac, that sort of makes sense, but why have I seen dynos that show low-to-mid-range HP gains with those "balanced" pipes?

The answer is the design of those pipes are inherited from a completely different beast that is heavily hot-rodded: the cross-plane V8. Believe it or not, the normal V8 does not fire equally on both banks. Contrary to an even firing V6 like the ST, let's take a typical cross-fire V8 with firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Follow along- left bank fires, right, right (again), left, right, left, left (again), right .... When viewed from each bank's perspective, the cross-plane crankshaft individual exhaust pulses from each bank are not symmetrical- they are "unbalanced". In which case, a well-designed exhaust "balance" mechanism can be used to harness the uneven pressure surges that result. It's just not something applicable to an even fire turbocharged V6 and I wouldn't use an "X" pipe as shown in Kruppa's pics in any case.

Once again, this shows that even something a reputable tuner might espouse while well-meaning might not work for your ST.
 

Cruising68

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#25
TMac, I enjoy reading your posts. I was an engineer many moons ago and never ended up applying it to my occupations so I lost a lot of it. Still enjoy your more technical posts. You remind me of an engineer with a screen name of Rubber Duck on the CTSV board. He would happily get into the calculus of intake and exhaust flow through the intake maninfold, through the combustion chambers, and our the exhaust based on 1.7 million different combinations. He was an automotive engine engineer most of his life and he talks like a Mensa member to me. I get half to three quarters of what he says but some of it just goe right over my head.
 

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Thread Starter #26
Thank you! I try my best, while hiding most of the math. I haven't read any posts by Mr. Duck, but I definitely don't have the patience to do 1.7 million different combinations!
 

UNBROKEN

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#28
You can run any exhaust…nobody said you couldn’t. What you NEED though is a totally different subject.
 

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#29
Haha no harm my fellow companion. The build though is just like a incomplete Mona Lisa. Just wondering when is the breaking point of our pistons? If the tranny hold this beast hits 1000whp I will start saving for a new 3.0 engine. So im planning on documenting this build onto YouTube if you want to follow me and you’ll be more than welcome bash me.
I’m mean no harm my friend UNBROKEN :love:(y)
 

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#30
I recently took a look at a an interesting internet article about a very fast ST.

https://www.fordmuscle.com/features...kis-exceptionally-fast-10-second-explorer-st/

Being an engineer and relentlessly curious, I'm looking at some of the choices made on that owner's recent modifications and although I'm very impressed at the quality of the welding, I'm less impressed at the exhaust design choices that were made. So, at the risk of criticism, and to offer some insight, I'd like to address a few points about the newest iteration of this build as it pertains to the exhaust.

If we look at the newest rendition, we have new top mounted twin turbos (cool) with external wastegates (cool) feeding into dual 3" exhausts (info from FB page). Incorporated into those 3" exhausts is a true "X" pipe. No matter how it's designed, as an "X" an "H" or some other bridged design, the concept and theory is to "balance" the exhaust flow. Now, for both of you that read my previous posts on this exhaust thread you'll remember that I encouraged smaller pipes, heat retention by minimizing surface area, and the re-introduction of laminar flow after the turbine to reduce backpressure. I also stressed that what might work for an N/A or supercharged engine may not translate to a turbocharged engine.

My previous posts should address why a dual 3" exhaust is not only unnecessary, but actually inhibits performance- unless one is talking about a 1,500+ hp engine. In the case of a 700 hp engine or even a 1000 hp engine, it's not helping anything, but if his goals are higher or it creates a pleasing tone, that's entirely up to him.

View attachment 10658

However, the most interesting item is the "X" pipe. Take a look at the link I posted above and ask yourself this question: What is this "X" pipe's purpose?

There are three schools of thought on a "balance pipe", "H" pipe, "X" pipe, etc. The first is that it creates a venturi effect that "sucks" out exhaust from one pipe to the other. Let's explore that a bit. A higher velocity gas in a tube creates a lower pressure than a lower velocity gas- which will exhibit more pressure. Carburetors use this technique to raise the velocity in a tube by accelerating it which creates a low pressure area into which fuel (at atmospheric pressure) is then "sucked" into the airstream. There is no doubt that at low RPMs there could be momentary surges of velocity from each bank- but this depends on the exhaust pulse timing and the pipe length and diameter being appropriately sized. How much racing are you doing at 2000 RPM? So think about it for a minute- which tube, coming from two symmetrical engine banks at 6000 RPM has a higher velocity? Neither. Doesn't that mean that these two "flows" are simply interfering with each other causing turbulence reducing the flow rate?

The second school of thought pertains to vehicles with mufflers after the balance pipe. In this case the thought is that the exhaust "sees" less restriction (pressure) since there are two mufflers rather than one. This scenario actually makes a bit of sense if you have very restrictive mufflers, and the pipes have a small shared area- In that case, a design like this makes sense: The flows have minimal interaction (assuming the co-joined throat is sized correctly) while still allowing some bleed-off when there is indeed a pressure differential. I'd suggest as minimal a bend as possible with a throat area no larger than 1/2 the pipe cross section.
View attachment 10659

The third school of thought involves "pressure wave tuning". In this scenario, we can use the length of a primary pipe (intake or exhaust) and harness the on-off flow of the ICE and an abrupt change of volume in the pipe (intake manifold, header collector, cylinder). The abrupt change in volume causes a rapid rise in pressure, and like hitting a drum head, that pressure "wave" is reflected back along the primary tube path. As the wave reflects, contrary to common sense, it actually causes the flow in the original direction to increase. Depending on the RPM and the length of the primary pipe one can use this phenomenon to increase torque peaks at certain RPM points. You've seen all sorts of "tuned port" intakes and exhaust primaries for 50+ years. This is one of the reasons you see strange bumps and depressions in a dyno chart (all else being equal). The problem is that this potential "reflection" the source (exhaust valve) and has already been pretty much exhausted by the turbine housing or collector to be meaningful.

If you've followed this far, you might be scratching your head and wondering, OK, TMac, that sort of makes sense, but why have I seen dynos that show low-to-mid-range HP gains with those "balanced" pipes?

The answer is the design of those pipes are inherited from a completely different beast that is heavily hot-rodded: the cross-plane V8. Believe it or not, the normal V8 does not fire equally on both banks. Contrary to an even firing V6 like the ST, let's take a typical cross-fire V8 with firing order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. Follow along- left bank fires, right, right (again), left, right, left, left (again), right .... When viewed from each bank's perspective, the cross-plane crankshaft individual exhaust pulses from each bank are not symmetrical- they are "unbalanced". In which case, a well-designed exhaust "balance" mechanism can be used to harness the uneven pressure surges that result. It's just not something applicable to an even fire turbocharged V6 and I wouldn't use an "X" pipe as shown in Kruppa's pics in any case.

Once again, this shows that even something a reputable tuner might espouse while well-meaning might not work for your ST.
love the balancing engine part cause that’s true the v8 cylinders and its like a dancing ballerina. Some even shut off two cylinders to run smoothly at low rpm’s.
So I have a question about the x pipe..
As you stated a x pipe is unwanted why is that? Would a h pipe be worse or some what better? Like some v8 have a deeper tone with x pipe vs a h pipe.
Exhaust with h pipe here is new from MRT link is below.
https://www.shopmrt.com/2020-Explorer-MRT-Interceptor-Cat-back-90R229-p/90r229.htm
 

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Thread Starter #31
I explained in the post why I think it's unnecessary. On that MRT exhaust, it looks like they have tapped the crossover (H pipe) and installed a Helmholtz resonator to give it a particular sound. I am not an acoustics engineer, @UNBROKEN could most likely answer your question.
 

Cruising68

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#32
Thank you! I try my best, while hiding most of the math. I haven't read any posts by Mr. Duck, but I definitely don't have the patience to do 1.7 million different combinations!
Exaggerating of course. But he would go into the details of the cam choice on a supercharged engine in a highly scientific manner explaining why you wanted an xyz combustion chamber size and what happened if you didn't run xyz chamber size etc, etc. But he did it with all the formulas so you knew he wasn't pulling it out of his butt. Always liked the thorough explanations even though 20% went over my head :)
 

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#33
I explained in the post why I think it's unnecessary. On that MRT exhaust, it looks like they have tapped the crossover (H pipe) and installed a Helmholtz resonator to give it a particular sound. I am not an acoustics engineer, @UNBROKEN could most likely answer your question.
Would the “suck”, “pressure”, “wave balance” schools have a better chance on a stand alone exhaust pipe for each exhaust manifold that will never interacted with each other with minimum bends?
OR
Would straight pipe from exhaust manifold into a cutout in hood or side panels work better to achieving positivity in all three school areas?
 

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Thread Starter #34
Look at post #1 and #11 in this thread. I think that will give you an idea of my thoughts.
 

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#35
Look at post #1 and #11 in this thread. I think that will give you an idea of my thoughts.
Ok your turbo it what completely holding back. I wonder if the turbos just get deleted and go straight to twin charge set up? (Turbo and supercharger running together perfectly)
 

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Thread Starter #36
I think that would be an extraordinarily bad idea.
 

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Thread Starter #38
I THINK THAT WOULD BE AN EXTRAORDINARILY BAD IDEA.
 

GearHead_1

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#39
^ Agreed

I have seen this done, maybe 25 years ago. It was an SBC (Dart as I remember) that ran twin turbos in front of a blower and ran nitrous. The owner claimed it was dynoed at just shy of 2000 HP. It was stainless, chrome, and polished aluminum everywhere under the hood. It was truly beautiful. It was in a show car and once it was proven to run, I don't think he hardly ever started it.
 

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#40
There are some pretty nasty compound FI cars/trucks out there. Not that it makes a lot of
sense with the turbos available today. But, ride in a 1000+ rwhp car with a PD blower and set of twins, it’s quite impressive. Zero lag for roll racing with the turbos for the big end is possibly the only thing it might be beneficial for. Manual cars benefit from it a lot more than an auto. Maybe save some rotors from break boosting I guess.
 

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