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The FORZDA3 2021 Rapid Red ST "NOT-a-Build" Project
- Thread starter FORZDA3
- Start date
'cause I don't give a shit.
I'm fine with off-the-shelf parts and tune. Spent my life in motorcycle racing, seen every DIY and off-the-shelf, and many times the off-the-shelf is far superior due to extensive testing and feedback from multiple sources. It also factors a median for everyone, because I don't live in Denver or Death Valley, I live at sea level and 80% humidity (on a nice day) and 80-90oF days.
I'm also kind of technically challenged, or don't give a shit to learn some new programming at my age.
But what do I know, please, gentlemen, carry on
I'm fine with off-the-shelf parts and tune. Spent my life in motorcycle racing, seen every DIY and off-the-shelf, and many times the off-the-shelf is far superior due to extensive testing and feedback from multiple sources. It also factors a median for everyone, because I don't live in Denver or Death Valley, I live at sea level and 80% humidity (on a nice day) and 80-90oF days.
I'm also kind of technically challenged, or don't give a shit to learn some new programming at my age.
But what do I know, please, gentlemen, carry on
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BTW, no offense to any of you, but as a form of racing, I think drag racing is kind of bogus. Again, no offense.
"Racing" for me is on a track where all of your skills and mind is challenged with braking and throttle points as well as line choice and passing skills.
I won't say anyone can be John Force, but if you have a ton of cash and a few smart people, you can go pretty fast in a straight line too.
But what do I know?
"Racing" for me is on a track where all of your skills and mind is challenged with braking and throttle points as well as line choice and passing skills.
I won't say anyone can be John Force, but if you have a ton of cash and a few smart people, you can go pretty fast in a straight line too.
But what do I know?
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It takes more skill than you’re giving credit for. Running in the 3’s at 200+ in the 1/8 takes about $200K worth of car minimum these days and you’re a literal split second from living or dying at any time. The tuning for everything from the suspension to the engine has to be literally perfect. I learned from some of the best in the business and still know just enough to be dangerous. lol
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OP
Thread Starter
#68
Thread Starter
#68
No offense at all. That's why there are different forms of MotorSports!
Drag racing was my first serious foray into motorsports. My Dad was a drag racer throughout my youth and had pretty good results at local strips running in the "stock" class with a '56 Chevy. That was a time when drag racing was really moving with people like Garlits, Jenkins, Glidden, etc. My boss at the parts store also ran the ProStock "circuit" in the southeast. The cars were generally older NHRA ProStock cars that were crashed/damaged, or otherwise "cheap" to buy and rebuild. I crewed for him and helped him at his home shop where he built and maintained the race car and did work on the side. I learned quite a bit helping him and my Dad.
I learned to drive fast on the slippery dirt roads in the day and became pretty dang good. Seems I have a "natural" feeling for what the car is doing. Just born with gasoline in my blood from my Dad I suppose. We attended a lot of dirt and paved oval racing, such that my Dad wanted to start a dirt car, but I refused to buy into it because all it takes is some POS with a grudge to turn your hard work into junk. Such was racing back then. That's why drag racing and SCCA Solo and ProSolo autocross type racing became my only focus.
Drag racing has now become such an expensive endeavor that I don't do any serious drags. I run SCCA autocross and drag racing just for bragging rights and the fun of tuning cars.
This is where ol' broke and I can agree on something. Drag racing is really serious with technology and forced induction/nitrous setups that make stupid power now. It's a long way from running factory and home-built hardware to state-of-the-art speed parts.
Drag racing was my first serious foray into motorsports. My Dad was a drag racer throughout my youth and had pretty good results at local strips running in the "stock" class with a '56 Chevy. That was a time when drag racing was really moving with people like Garlits, Jenkins, Glidden, etc. My boss at the parts store also ran the ProStock "circuit" in the southeast. The cars were generally older NHRA ProStock cars that were crashed/damaged, or otherwise "cheap" to buy and rebuild. I crewed for him and helped him at his home shop where he built and maintained the race car and did work on the side. I learned quite a bit helping him and my Dad.
I learned to drive fast on the slippery dirt roads in the day and became pretty dang good. Seems I have a "natural" feeling for what the car is doing. Just born with gasoline in my blood from my Dad I suppose. We attended a lot of dirt and paved oval racing, such that my Dad wanted to start a dirt car, but I refused to buy into it because all it takes is some POS with a grudge to turn your hard work into junk. Such was racing back then. That's why drag racing and SCCA Solo and ProSolo autocross type racing became my only focus.
Drag racing has now become such an expensive endeavor that I don't do any serious drags. I run SCCA autocross and drag racing just for bragging rights and the fun of tuning cars.
This is where ol' broke and I can agree on something. Drag racing is really serious with technology and forced induction/nitrous setups that make stupid power now. It's a long way from running factory and home-built hardware to state-of-the-art speed parts.
![[burnout]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_burnout.gif "Burnout [burnout]"){kind=icon}
OP
Thread Starter
#73
OP
Thread Starter
#74
Thread Starter
#74
Finally made the first two runs with the Dragy. Stone stock, right down to the air in the tires. 500 miles on it, still on first tank of real 93(E10) since the original purchase fill with whatever the cheapest was close by the dealer. Well, non-stock are the two car seats for the Grandkids along with the plethora of paraphernalia required to keep them occupied like two video screens and DVD player attached to the back of the front seats, cups, blankets, stuffed toys, etc.
Not really great performance, but certainly respectable for the family hauler vehicle. It falls on it's face right at launch, so I'll need to tweak it for a better launch. It should run at least 2-3 tenths quicker with just a more practiced launch technique, and another one or two with full power in the first 3 gears.
It still runs the same ET/Speed as my stock Raptor did with a decent 93 OTS tune I bought from MPT (w/nGauge) before Cobb Tuning finally released their software and hardware products for it. I'm in a similar situation with the ExpST with HPTuners the only software platform providing support so far. So, that's why I finally went all-in on the HPTuners MPVI2 Pro setup for now. If Cobb ever releases their full AP and AT for it, I'll switch right over ASAP.
Anyway, here are pics of the Dragy screens. Two runs, one each direction, on the same piece of back road.
Not really great performance, but certainly respectable for the family hauler vehicle. It falls on it's face right at launch, so I'll need to tweak it for a better launch. It should run at least 2-3 tenths quicker with just a more practiced launch technique, and another one or two with full power in the first 3 gears.
It still runs the same ET/Speed as my stock Raptor did with a decent 93 OTS tune I bought from MPT (w/nGauge) before Cobb Tuning finally released their software and hardware products for it. I'm in a similar situation with the ExpST with HPTuners the only software platform providing support so far. So, that's why I finally went all-in on the HPTuners MPVI2 Pro setup for now. If Cobb ever releases their full AP and AT for it, I'll switch right over ASAP.
Anyway, here are pics of the Dragy screens. Two runs, one each direction, on the same piece of back road.
Hold on, Stop the presses!!!!
You gave @UNBROKEN and I crap for having somebody else tune their vehicle. Yet you just admitted to your Raptor being tuned by somebody else.
As far as your reference to COBB. HPT’s Support for Ford’s 10 Spd Transmissions FAR surpasses COBB’s. It is BY FAR the better tuning platform for this vehicle.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You gave @UNBROKEN and I crap for having somebody else tune their vehicle. Yet you just admitted to your Raptor being tuned by somebody else.
As far as your reference to COBB. HPT’s Support for Ford’s 10 Spd Transmissions FAR surpasses COBB’s. It is BY FAR the better tuning platform for this vehicle.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
OP
Thread Starter
#76
Thread Starter
#76
Yep, my Raptor had a “bought” tune for most of the first year of ownership precisely because HPTuners is not the best for tuning the ECU/PCM. Cobb’s OTS 10R80 tune is damn near perfect for the Raptor, so I haven’t changed it
Have used the HOT platform for the ExpST ECU/PCM? I can tell you for SURE that the HPT is significantly lacking compared to Cobb’s usual included “features”. Trey and his Ford team have great insight into the “custom” functions needed and adds them to their tuning platforms. Unfortunately Cobb doesn’t have their setup ready for the ExpST. I’ve talked with them about it and have requested their support as the ExpST looks like it is going to be a hit in the old farts’ garages.
I haven’t delved into the 10R60 trans in the ExpST yet, so I can’t comment with any experience.
Have used the HOT platform for the ExpST ECU/PCM? I can tell you for SURE that the HPT is significantly lacking compared to Cobb’s usual included “features”. Trey and his Ford team have great insight into the “custom” functions needed and adds them to their tuning platforms. Unfortunately Cobb doesn’t have their setup ready for the ExpST. I’ve talked with them about it and have requested their support as the ExpST looks like it is going to be a hit in the old farts’ garages.
I haven’t delved into the 10R60 trans in the ExpST yet, so I can’t comment with any experience.
Huh? HPT is one of the most respected platforms for Tuning Modern Ford ECM & Trans. Most of the ones setting records and doing crazy things, that is what they are using, because VCM gives them access to SO much.
Not to mention you gave us SO much crap for using somebody else's tuning....yet here you are. You are a hypocrite sir. This is exactly why ZFG tunes my ST. Because he knows it better than anybody and has a proven track record on the ST, and MANY other Fords!
Not sure what you are trying to ask in your first sentence. I am on my 4th EcoBoost using the HPT MPVI2. I was actually a Beta Tester, actually still running newer firmware for the MPVI2, for the Stand Alone Logging. I have done MANY hours of logging with my MPVI2 on MANY Fords, both for me and others. I have done small changes and tweaked a few things. Mostly I leave it up to Adam@ ZFG. Again, could I add power myself, yes, but get as much as Adam@ZFG out of it, Nope. He is the Master!
The code on the new Ford 10Spd's is larger than the ECM's. Good luck. Adding power to the ST without factoring in tweaking the 10R60 has been proven to be a bad idea. Heck one tuner's tunes made it worse a few times. You better know what you are doing before messing with that Trans. This ain't that 4 Speed you messed with in the past!
Not to mention you gave us SO much crap for using somebody else's tuning....yet here you are. You are a hypocrite sir. This is exactly why ZFG tunes my ST. Because he knows it better than anybody and has a proven track record on the ST, and MANY other Fords!
Not sure what you are trying to ask in your first sentence. I am on my 4th EcoBoost using the HPT MPVI2. I was actually a Beta Tester, actually still running newer firmware for the MPVI2, for the Stand Alone Logging. I have done MANY hours of logging with my MPVI2 on MANY Fords, both for me and others. I have done small changes and tweaked a few things. Mostly I leave it up to Adam@ ZFG. Again, could I add power myself, yes, but get as much as Adam@ZFG out of it, Nope. He is the Master!
The code on the new Ford 10Spd's is larger than the ECM's. Good luck. Adding power to the ST without factoring in tweaking the 10R60 has been proven to be a bad idea. Heck one tuner's tunes made it worse a few times. You better know what you are doing before messing with that Trans. This ain't that 4 Speed you messed with in the past!
OP
Thread Starter
#78
Thread Starter
#78
No, not a hypocrite for using someone else's product while waiting for my preferred platform. I purchased the HPTuners earlier MPVI1 Pro setup, but I don't like the GUI they use, plus the table arrangements suck. HPT is also missing many functions that Cobb includes. HPT latest version includes a few interesting tables that would be great if applicable to the ExpST, but they're non-functional to date, even in the beta version. SO I just shelved it and waited for the Accesstuner from Cobb. The Cobb AP is a MUCH more user-friendly and capable device for quick & easy data logging, quick changes to ECU functional options right from the AP at the vehicle. The only engine functional item I see in HPT that isn't in Cobb is the 2-stage oil pump settings. Anyway, I've done all the current tuning on my Raptor with Cobb Accesstuner.
ZFG Adam indeed does great work. He visits the Raptor forum and has done a few Raptors as well. There was one for sure he tuned with the CRP Stage-4 bolt-on turbos. The guy said it ran great until it popped. I'm sure Adam didn't do anything to cause it. From all the information available it was operator error with maintain adequate oil level. Tuning for reliable power is quite a tough process as I've done it. I certainly respect a few of the business tuners because I know the work involved to gain that intellectual property. That said, there is no magic involved, just dedicated work at the task. I'm quite familiar with the Cobb platform and they had already announced their interest in the Raptor, so I bought the MPT as the interim, nothing more.
I can see why you prefer ZFG Adam to do your tuning rather than learning it yourself though. It sure is easier... BTW, if Adam does your tuning, he (and all other tuners) locks the tunes to protect his intellectual investment, so how do you access the vehicle to make those changes and tweaks? Do you mean that was before you bought into ZFG?
As for the 10R60, you're correct. I'm certainly not ready to claim victory over knowing it fully, but it will happen,, eventually. Likely a bit later rather than earlier as the ExpST is the wife's DD. The Raptor, Focus RS, and bikes are my go-to toys.
I do have some photos of my Focus RS forged engine "build" I should post up. I've popped 2 Direct Injection engines (1-Ford + 1-Mazda) before I finally learned the root cause. The Mazda 2.3 failure was back in 2008 when there were OEM stock engines popping, but we didn't know wtf was causing it. Even Mazda didn't know yet. They were the first wide-spread sellers of cars with Turbocharged Direct Injection Spark Ignition (DISI) in their MazdaSpeed division. Yes, I'm was my own tuning with Cobb products. The root cause is/was LSPI due to the then-current SN motor oils! It took some frustrated digging to find out the how/why, but I do learn eventually! Now, it's a common knowledge topic.
ZFG Adam indeed does great work. He visits the Raptor forum and has done a few Raptors as well. There was one for sure he tuned with the CRP Stage-4 bolt-on turbos. The guy said it ran great until it popped. I'm sure Adam didn't do anything to cause it. From all the information available it was operator error with maintain adequate oil level. Tuning for reliable power is quite a tough process as I've done it. I certainly respect a few of the business tuners because I know the work involved to gain that intellectual property. That said, there is no magic involved, just dedicated work at the task. I'm quite familiar with the Cobb platform and they had already announced their interest in the Raptor, so I bought the MPT as the interim, nothing more.
I can see why you prefer ZFG Adam to do your tuning rather than learning it yourself though. It sure is easier... BTW, if Adam does your tuning, he (and all other tuners) locks the tunes to protect his intellectual investment, so how do you access the vehicle to make those changes and tweaks? Do you mean that was before you bought into ZFG?
As for the 10R60, you're correct. I'm certainly not ready to claim victory over knowing it fully, but it will happen,, eventually. Likely a bit later rather than earlier as the ExpST is the wife's DD. The Raptor, Focus RS, and bikes are my go-to toys.
I do have some photos of my Focus RS forged engine "build" I should post up. I've popped 2 Direct Injection engines (1-Ford + 1-Mazda) before I finally learned the root cause. The Mazda 2.3 failure was back in 2008 when there were OEM stock engines popping, but we didn't know wtf was causing it. Even Mazda didn't know yet. They were the first wide-spread sellers of cars with Turbocharged Direct Injection Spark Ignition (DISI) in their MazdaSpeed division. Yes, I'm was my own tuning with Cobb products. The root cause is/was LSPI due to the then-current SN motor oils! It took some frustrated digging to find out the how/why, but I do learn eventually! Now, it's a common knowledge topic.
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