Explorer ST/Timberline Part Swap

[jrgoffin]

…with one of my original points being that the smallest diff Torsen makes for Ford is an 8.8.

 

[I Bleed Ford Blue]

I understand that, but do you work for torsen, or for ford? Then how do you know for sure. It would make sense to just upgrade the timberline to the 8.8 then to commission a smaller torsen for one niche vehicle, but ford has been known to do some stupid things that make no sense. Until I see concrete proof that the timberline has an 8.8, I'm still going to be skeptical.

Do you know what the axle spline count is on the explorer 8.8, or the timberline? The mustang IRS 8.8 has 34 spline axles, and if the ST 8.8 does and the timberline does that would be proof enough for me, unless the smaller 8.1 in an XLT/limited also has 34 splines then we are back at square one.

 

[TMac]

I understand that, but do you work for torsen, or for ford? Then how do you know for sure. It would make sense to just upgrade the timberline to the 8.8 then to commission a smaller torsen for one niche vehicle, but ford has been known to do some stupid things that make no sense. Until I see concrete proof that the timberline has an 8.8, I'm still going to be skeptical.

Do you know what the axle spline count is on the explorer 8.8, or the timberline? The mustang IRS 8.8 has 34 spline axles, and if the ST 8.8 does and the timberline does that would be proof enough for me, unless the smaller 8.1 in an XLT/limited also has 34 splines then we are back at square one.

No need to be so prickly about it! At this point we're making educated guesses. Are there any other 3.58 gear ratios available in the smaller diff? If not, are you suggesting that not only did Ford commission a Torsen LSD for the smaller diff, but they also decided to make a one-off ring/pinion. Doesn't seem that likely to me, but we'll find out soon. My bet is like every other thing manufacturers do these days is we'll probably see next year's ST RWD model with a Torsen rear diff or an option for same- just another way to appeal to segments of the market.

 

[I Bleed Ford Blue]

I think you may have misunderstood my post. What I meant was it would have made more sense for ford to just use the larger 8.8 diff from the ST/platinum and put in a torsen for the timberline, than to commission a torsen for the smaller diff used in the XLT/limited. No one here knows for sure what size diff is in the timberline yet. The pic posted earlier does not have a diff tag so we have no idea what it actually is. I hope it is an 8.8 in the timberline, that would be so much simpler for all of us.

As for the ratio, They all get a 3.58 ratio except the platinum, which gets a 3.31, so the XLT, Limited, Timberline, and ST all get a 3.58

BTW I think a torsen out of the 15-22 mustangs would work, but they are not cheap.

 

[TMac]

Axle Ratio
2.3L EcoBoost® I-4 RWD 3.36
2.3L EcoBoost® I-4 4WD 3.51
3.0L EcoBoost® V6 4WD 3.58
3.0L EcoBoost® V6 4WD 3.16
3.3L Hybrid V6 3.73
Timberline 2.3L EcoBoost® I-4 4WD 3.58 TORSEN Limited Slip Rear Axle

Diff specs from Ford website. Couldn't find anything more specific, but I'd make a guess the 3.36, 3.51, and (possibly) the 3.73 are the smaller diffs. The 3.16 makes sense as a gas mileage helper, on the 3.0 ecoboost. That would make me pretty confident that the 3.58 torsen is the 8.8. Just based on diff geometry it would be extremely unlikely to see a 3.51 and a 3.58 using the same size ring gear.

 

[I Bleed Ford Blue]

Got a link to where you found that info? I was going off the 21 explorer sales brochure, see page 15 in the brochure, they only list the 3.31 and the 3.58 ratios.

 

[LokiWolf]

Axle Ratio
2.3L EcoBoost I-4 RWD 3.36
2.3L EcoBoost I-4 4WD 3.51
3.0L EcoBoost V6 4WD 3.58
3.0L EcoBoost V6 4WD 3.16
3.3L Hybrid V6 3.73
Timberline 2.3L EcoBoost I-4 4WD 3.58 TORSEN Limited Slip Rear Axle

Diff specs from Ford website. Couldn't find anything more specific, but I'd make a guess the 3.36, 3.51, and 3.73 are the smaller diffs. The 3.16 makes sense as a gas mileage helper, on the ecoboost. That would make me pretty confident the the 3.58 torsen is the 8.8. Just based on diff geometry it would be extremely unlikely to see a 3.51 and a 3.58 using the same size ring gear.

I agree 100%!


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[TMac]

Got a link to where you found that info? I was going off the 21 explorer sales brochure, see page 15 in the brochure, they only list the 3.31 and the 3.58 ratios.

Had to do a bit of searching, but found it in ford 2022 towing specs- listed all the diffs and towing amounts. I edited out the towing since it wasn't relevant.

 

[I Bleed Ford Blue]

Ok thanks, I'll look for it.

BTW ford racing offers a 4.09 gearset for the 15+ mustang and the aftermarket has a 4.10 set for the same rear diff. Only .01 difference so it is possible for the 3.51 and 3.58 to both be for the same diff.

 

[TMac]

I'm betting that's a rounding error from a marketing department in order to make something seem better. Think about the number of teeth on the same size ring gear and the teeth needed on the same sized pinion to make that difference. Possible, but very unlikely. But, we'll soon have more info from other posters. IIRC @MattJ716 works for Ford and might be able to shed some light?

 

[bluesnake01]

Axle Ratio
2.3L EcoBoost® I-4 RWD 3.36
2.3L EcoBoost® I-4 4WD 3.51
3.0L EcoBoost® V6 4WD 3.58
3.0L EcoBoost® V6 4WD 3.16
3.3L Hybrid V6 3.73
Timberline 2.3L EcoBoost® I-4 4WD 3.58 TORSEN Limited Slip Rear Axle

Diff specs from Ford website. Couldn't find anything more specific, but I'd make a guess the 3.36, 3.51, and (possibly) the 3.73 are the smaller diffs. The 3.16 makes sense as a gas mileage helper, on the 3.0 ecoboost. That would make me pretty confident that the 3.58 torsen is the 8.8. Just based on diff geometry it would be extremely unlikely to see a 3.51 and a 3.58 using the same size ring gear.

Wouldn't even call it a gas mileage helper. Might get .2 mpg at most if lucky. Reason why both ST and Platinum are rated the same. Ford should've just left the final gear ratios the same for the 3.0l's.

 

[jrgoffin]

I understand that, but do you work for torsen, or for ford? Then how do you know for sure. It would make sense to just upgrade the timberline to the 8.8 then to commission a smaller torsen for one niche vehicle, but ford has been known to do some stupid things that make no sense. Until I see concrete proof that the timberline has an 8.8, I'm still going to be skeptical.

Do you know what the axle spline count is on the explorer 8.8, or the timberline? The mustang IRS 8.8 has 34 spline axles, and if the ST 8.8 does and the timberline does that would be proof enough for me, unless the smaller 8.1 in an XLT/limited also has 34 splines then we are back at square one.

The differential used is close to the Super 8.8 in the Mustang, and to the best of my knowledge, the Torsen uses the 34-spline shafts. For a swap in to an ST, it could be easy, especially if you have the entire carrier (would be nice if Ford Performance would offer that some day, so I’ll mention it to friends there). Either way, its 3.58 gear is an 8.8.

Adding to that, here are pictures of both the 8.1” and 8.8” carriers from the rear. It’s easy to see their differences, and obvious the Timberline is also an 8.8.

The 8.1:



The 8.8:

 

[MattJ716]

I'm betting that's a rounding error from a marketing department in order to make something seem better. Think about the number of teeth on the same size ring gear and the teeth needed on the same sized pinion to make that difference. Possible, but very unlikely. But, we'll soon have more info from other posters. IIRC @MattJ716 works for Ford and might be able to shed some light?

Let me read through this entire thread... i was out of action all day yesterday and not at work.

I'll see if I can help at all once I read through it.

 

[Franz01234]

I took the gamble and ordered the Torsen for the 15 to 21 Mustang. I have the 8.8 diff. The issue is that its sitting on my shelf and I currently have no time to check if it fits and install it. I will probably be able to do it in a week or two.

 

[LokiWolf]

I took the gamble and ordered the Torsen for the 15 to 21 Mustang. I have the 8.8 diff. The issue is that its sitting on my shelf and I currently have no time to check if it fits and install it. I will probably be able to do it in a week or two.
View attachment 8960

Nice! I think your install will solve many peoples questions. Plus many are curious from a performance standpoint if it makes a difference!


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[TMac]

Excellent!

 

[jrgoffin]

I took the gamble and ordered the Torsen for the 15 to 21 Mustang. I have the 8.8 diff. The issue is that its sitting on my shelf and I currently have no time to check if it fits and install it. I will probably be able to do it in a week or two.
View attachment 8960

It's a great differential, but one more thing to add that came from a rep at Torsen: I believe the OEM ring gear is actually welded to the differential in the Explorer's factory rear. That being said, I don't think you'll be able to source the gears or remove the ones you already have (or if you get close, it will involve much recalibration). It's why I had mentioned that it would be nice if Ford Performance put out a complete carrier that is used in the Timberline, since a direct swap, rather than a rebuild, is the way to go. I may stop at my local dealership tomorrow and since if a Timberline VIN will pull up a good part number for the complete carrier for those that want it. Love the T2R in my Cobra and sure wish the ST would have gotten it from the factory as well.

 

[GearHead_1]

Welded or heat shrunk?

 

[jrgoffin]

Welded or heat shrunk?

I believe welded, as in one piece with non-serviceable gears.

Here is a quote from the service manual:

This is an open differential. It has the normal internal spider gear design that will allow a speed differential between the rear wheels when cornering. The open differential has the ring gear integrated with differential carrier assembly.

Picture from the service manual. Assuming it is accurate, there is no procedure for removal of the ring gear, and it shows the gear and housing as one piece.

 

[GearHead_1]

Thanks.